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Old 07-01-2013, 08:33 AM  
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Egyptian protestors storming Muslim Brotherhood HQ, demanding Morsi's removal.

The ugly business of budding democracies.

Happening before our very eyes. This is explosive.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middle...850692648.html

Egypt opposition to continue mass protests
Seat of the powerful Muslim Brotherhood to which President Morsi belongs set on fire as protesters push for his removal.
Last Modified: 01 Jul 2013 12:45

Protesters seeking to force Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi from office are gearing up for a second day of action, after large crowds thronged the streets of Cairo and cities around the country and marched on the presidential palace.

In the capital, the seat of the powerful Muslim Brotherhood to which Morsi belongs, was set ablaze before people stormed and looted the building, an AFP correspondent there said.

People were seen leaving with petrol bombs, helmets, flak jackets, furniture, televisions and documents.

Some preparing for rallies on Monday spent the night in dozens of tents pitched at Cairo's central Tahrir Square and the palace, positions organisers say they will hold until Morsi resigns.

In fewer numbers, supporters of the Egyptian president came out on Sunday to show their support and defend what they called the president’s "legitimacy".

As anger against Morsi swept the streets, at least six people were killed and more than 600 wounded in clashes between the pro and anti-Morsi groups, the Reuters news agency reported.

The main opposition Tamarod - Arabic for rebellion - movement, which led the demonstrations, gave Morsi a deadline of Tuesday to quit, threatening a campaign of civil disobedience if he stays.

The number of people who joined in protests on Sunday, the anniversary of Morsi's first year in office, was between 14m and 17m people, the interior ministry told Al Jazeera.

"It is absolutely fair to say that an unprecedented number of Egyptians went to the streets accross the country," said Al Jazeera's Hoda Abdel Hamid, reporting from Cairo.

She added that a statement from Morsi during the protests was not welcomed by many, as it did not offer anything new.

In the message released on Sunday, he said: "I believe we can come together and find a way that builds our country," and he could "engage in national dialogue."

In its statement, Tamarod urged "state institutions including the army, the police and the judiciary to clearly side with the popular will as represented by the crowds."

The group also rejected presidential calls for dialogue, saying: "There is no way to accept any halfway measures.

"There is no alternative other than the peaceful end of power of the Muslim Brotherhood and its representative, Mohamed Morsi."

Morsi supporters

A few kilometres away from the presidential palace, thousands of Morsi supporters also staged their own sit-in to show support for their president.

"If we are saying that we have a majority, and the opposition are saying that they have a majority, how can they decide?" asked Nader Omran, a spokesman for the Freedom and Justice Party, the political wing of the Muslim Brotherhood.

"What is the other solution for this dilemma, except the ballot box?"

Presidential spokesman Omar Amer said Morsi was serious in his repeated calls for national dialogue.

"[Morsi] announced to all of Egypt's people he made mistakes and that he is in the process of fixing these mistakes," Amer told a late-night news conference.

The duelling rallies on Sunday only further highlighted the deepening political polarisation in Egypt.

Morsi supporters are full of praise for his first year in office, insisting that the president has strengthened civilian rule in Egypt and done his best to manage a failing economy.

Many of them dismissed Sunday’s protests as the work of ex-regime figures and “thugs”, fuelled by a hostile media and Western governments.

Anti-government protesters, on the other hand, dismissed Morsi’s first term as a failure and described him as a dictatorial leader. Many accused him of backing the Palestinian group Hamas and other armed groups; one well-dressed man in Tahrir insisted that Morsi planned to cede the Sinai peninsula to Hamas.

But their main complaint was the worsening economy, which has been in free-fall since Morsi took office, with the Egyptian pound losing nearly 20 percent of its value and industry crippled by fuel and electricity shortages.

"He's borrowed money from everyone in the world," said Said Ahmed, referring to $11bn in loans Egypt has received from Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Turkey to prop up the economy. "Who's going to pay for that? Our children."
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Old 07-04-2013, 10:15 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
Dude, the military is going to move on them hard if they protest or commit terror. This ain't Libya. They have a clear majority of the people on their side. If the Muslim brotherhood are smart, they will just lay low and plan how to get back in the good graces of the people.

The military are professionals but they can be merciless to people they view as traitors.
There's a difference between forcibly removing them from office (coup) and arresting them for basically no reason (oppression).

They've already committed the former sin, justified or not. Let's hope it does not expand into the latter.
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Old 07-04-2013, 10:16 PM   #107
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My thoughts entirely.

I mean, this piece is every single thought I have on the subject. This is exactly what I'm saying.

http://theweek.com/article/index/246...-morsis-ouster

The dangerous precedent of Mohamed Morsi's ouster
For any country to establish an enduring system of democratic governance, its citizens must develop an allegiance to their particular system of choosing leaders
By Jeb Golinkin
July 4, 2013

A coup is underway in Egypt. For the second time in two years, the Egyptian people have risen up and ousted the leader of their country. While the Arab Spring of 2011 may have been interpreted by the outside world as a sign of Egypt's commitment to popular governance, this week's uprising demonstrates that the Egyptian people, by and large, may be less committed to the rule of law than we thought. While Mohamed Morsi's ouster is certainly not something worth grieving over, the act of deposing a popularly elected leader less than a year after he was put in office sets a dangerous precedent that could well plague Egypt for years to come.

If you find it peculiar that a self-described realist who advocates for a robust and unapologetic American foreign policy finds himself sympathizing with an Islamist leader of a vital American ally, well, I too am not sure what to make of my thoughts on this matter. For the United States, it is difficult to see how the Egyptian people rejecting their former Islamist-in-chief is anything but positive. And yet... this is not necessarily positive. Why? Because the ousting of a popularly elected leader may happen again and again in the future, and given the option between a stable Egypt with a popularly elected Islamist in charge and an unstable Egypt where the citizens take to Tahrir Square every couple of years and overthrow the government, I think we ought to lean towards the former.

Which brings us back to why we should all be a bit alarmed by what is going on in Egypt right now. Whereas Hosni Mubarak was basically an autocrat who ruled a nation whose citizens had few meaningful chances to check the ways in which he used his powers or decide whether he ought to have power at all, Morsi was a despot of the popularly elected variety. After overthrowing Mubarak, the Egyptian people went to some pains to create a system that would both empower the people to select their own leaders while simultaneously empowering the leaders who were elected to act on behalf of their mandate. For any country to establish an enduring system of democratic governance, its citizens must develop an allegiance to their particular system of choosing leaders.

The Egyptian people created such a system of rules, and they elected Morsi to a four-year term. Yet less than a year into that term, a large number of Egyptian people decided that Morsi was an Islamist hack, and that he was going to take their nation to hell on a speedboat if they let him to stick around. But rather than beginning a campaign to unseat him in the next election, the Egyptian people took to the street and demanded that he leave… and the army, which apparently acts as it sees fit when it sees fit, is effectuating the people's wish. This may work today, but it speaks to a political culture that values outcomes at the expense of process. This is a recipe for civil wars and unending instability.

What sets democracy apart from anarchy is not so much the democratic societies elect the best leaders. It is that democratic societies work through the system to make changes when they do not. That is why Jimmy Carter and George W. Bush were not tossed from office by a mob despite the fact that both were extremely unpopular at various points in their respective presidencies. Egypt is going down a very different, and very worrying path.
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Old 07-04-2013, 11:48 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
Dude, the military is going to move on them hard if they protest or commit terror. This ain't Libya. They have a clear majority of the people on their side. If the Muslim brotherhood are smart, they will just lay low and plan how to get back in the good graces of the people.

The military are professionals but they can be merciless to people they view as traitors.
I'm not sure why you even bother. You are CLEARLY one of the only people here who ACTUALLY has a solid understanding of the middle east. The reality doesn't often fit into partisan talking points. Direckshun needs to stop ASSERTING and just LISTEN to you for a second and maybe he will learn something.
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Old 07-05-2013, 01:56 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
There's a difference between forcibly removing them from office (coup) and arresting them for basically no reason (oppression).

They've already committed the former sin, justified or not. Let's hope it does not expand into the latter.
Are you under an assumption that a mass kumbaya occurs after a military coup? Are you under the belief that those formerly in power will happily homogenize back into the Egyptian society when control is still more or less up for grabs?

This is one of the most precarious moments that Egypt will be in through this process (it's possible it could get much, much worse if a wrong action is taken). To not expect these types of actions by the military is rather unrealistic in this situation.
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Old 07-05-2013, 08:31 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
This has become a slogan of yours, and you never have anything to back it up.
You can say you don't agree with me, but you can't say that I haven't explained my position complete with a set of examples.
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Old 07-05-2013, 08:32 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Fritz88 View Post
He was elected democratically. You can't take that from him.

He ****ed up. Well, wait until its elections time.




Well, the general consensus in the Arab world is that he's another American puppet. He's detested there. Of course you won't hear that in Alrabiya or Aljazeera because both of the governments who own these channels helped topple Morsi.

Let it happen in a civil way. People will take him down now or later. Don't let the Military come in.

Took us back to square one. **** this shit.
You're going to be on square one for a long time, if not worse.
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Old 07-05-2013, 08:38 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
Morsi and the Muslim brotherhood losing the people and being ousted by the military is a good thing for America, not a disaster.
Is Egypt's Thomas Jefferson waiting in the wings? If you think that, I think you're in line for a big disappointment. There are a couple of things that we can count on. One is that whoever takes over Egypt will not be a friend of the US and the other is that whoever takes over Egypt, they won't be able to fix their economy enough to satisfy their population. I won't be surprised if Egypt eventually decides that war is the answer to their domestic problems.

In any event, just look at the disrespect the Obama administration has earned for the US. When Mubarak was toppled, the military acted (by stepping aside) only after Obama sided with the people in the streets against Mubarak. This time around, the military acted in direct defiance of Obama's opposition to a military coup. Obama speaks and no one cares.
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Old 07-05-2013, 08:42 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
There's really no singular approach to the Middle East by the Obama administration.

Every country, and its role in the region, has been responded to in a unique way.

For every rule you try to create as some sort of "Obama doctrine" regarding that region, I could name at least a couple exceptions.
I think the word you're looking for here is "incoherent".
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Old 07-05-2013, 09:01 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Chiefspants View Post
Are you under an assumption that a mass kumbaya occurs after a military coup?
Absolutely not. Which is why I oppose military coups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiefspants View Post
Are you under the belief that those formerly in power will happily homogenize back into the Egyptian society when control is still more or less up for grabs?
Depends how you mean homogenize. I expect, under the best circumstances, that they will become bitter political rivals of whoever else in power, much like the Republicans are today in the US.

Under the worst circumstances, the military will persecute them, lock them up in jail (for... what, exactly?), and potentially incite a civil war.

Those are just two extremes of the situation, at least.

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Originally Posted by Chiefspants View Post
This is one of the most precarious moments that Egypt will be in through this process (it's possible it could get much, much worse if a wrong action is taken). To not expect these types of actions by the military is rather unrealistic in this situation.
I am not terribly surprised by them. That's why I opposed the coup.

I agree with you -- it's extremely precarious. This whole transition is on a knife's edge, and like the author in the piece above said, it sets a deeply troubling precedent for the future.
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Old 07-05-2013, 09:05 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Is Egypt's Thomas Jefferson waiting in the wings? If you think that, I think you're in line for a big disappointment. There are a couple of things that we can count on. One is that whoever takes over Egypt will not be a friend of the US and the other is that whoever takes over Egypt, they won't be able to fix their economy enough to satisfy their population. I won't be surprised if Egypt eventually decides that war is the answer to their domestic problems.

In any event, just look at the disrespect the Obama administration has earned for the US. When Mubarak was toppled, the military acted (by stepping aside) only after Obama sided with the people in the streets against Mubarak. This time around, the military acted in direct defiance of Obama's opposition to a military coup. Obama speaks and no one cares.
No one really should care, honestly. This is an Egyptian problem.

At the end of the day, the US controls the military's weapon supply and still sends billions in aid. The bright spot in all of this is that the military will aid the process in transition to civilian leadership simply because they don't want to mess up good business.

That doesn't mean they'll stick to our demands. But it does mean they will preserve some semblance of self-determination, even if it is just to satisfy their own pocketbooks.
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Old 07-05-2013, 09:08 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I think the word you're looking for here is "incoherent".
American foreign policy in the Middle East is inherently incoherent.

Obama. Bush. Clinton. Bush. Reagan. Carter.

There's not a single President that's had a singular approach to the Middle East that has made any goddamn sense.

Now, largely that's because the Middle East is far too complex for any singular approach to work.

But it's also because American Presidential rhetoric constantly tries to tell the Middle East about the ideals we want to project to them as a subcontinent, then break those ideals time after time once our wallets get in the way.
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Old 07-05-2013, 09:25 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
No one really should care, honestly. This is an Egyptian problem.

At the end of the day, the US controls the military's weapon supply and still sends billions in aid. The bright spot in all of this is that the military will aid the process in transition to civilian leadership simply because they don't want to mess up good business.

That doesn't mean they'll stick to our demands. But it does mean they will preserve some semblance of self-determination, even if it is just to satisfy their own pocketbooks.
There are other arms suppliers out there. Egypt swtiched geopolitical sides to great effect once and they can do it again. You really should care.
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Old 07-05-2013, 09:27 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
American foreign policy in the Middle East is inherently incoherent.

Obama. Bush. Clinton. Bush. Reagan. Carter.

There's not a single President that's had a singular approach to the Middle East that has made any goddamn sense.

Now, largely that's because the Middle East is far too complex for any singular approach to work.

But it's also because American Presidential rhetoric constantly tries to tell the Middle East about the ideals we want to project to them as a subcontinent, then break those ideals time after time once our wallets get in the way.
No, Obama's is incoherent. The other five had reasonably coherent approaches, for better or for worse. That doesn't mean one size fits all.
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Old 07-05-2013, 10:53 AM   #119
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Fox reporting that Egypt's military opened fire on pro-Morsi protesters.

Gets better and better, don't it?
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Old 07-05-2013, 10:56 AM   #120
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There are other arms suppliers out there. Egypt swtiched geopolitical sides to great effect once and they can do it again. You really should care.
Yeah... the global market for military armament isn't exactly the veggie aisle at the supermarket.

We're Egypt's suppliers of the best weapons and billions in aid. Egypt's military needs us more than we need them.
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