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Old 07-01-2013, 08:33 AM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Egyptian protestors storming Muslim Brotherhood HQ, demanding Morsi's removal.

The ugly business of budding democracies.

Happening before our very eyes. This is explosive.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middle...850692648.html

Egypt opposition to continue mass protests
Seat of the powerful Muslim Brotherhood to which President Morsi belongs set on fire as protesters push for his removal.
Last Modified: 01 Jul 2013 12:45

Protesters seeking to force Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi from office are gearing up for a second day of action, after large crowds thronged the streets of Cairo and cities around the country and marched on the presidential palace.

In the capital, the seat of the powerful Muslim Brotherhood to which Morsi belongs, was set ablaze before people stormed and looted the building, an AFP correspondent there said.

People were seen leaving with petrol bombs, helmets, flak jackets, furniture, televisions and documents.

Some preparing for rallies on Monday spent the night in dozens of tents pitched at Cairo's central Tahrir Square and the palace, positions organisers say they will hold until Morsi resigns.

In fewer numbers, supporters of the Egyptian president came out on Sunday to show their support and defend what they called the president’s "legitimacy".

As anger against Morsi swept the streets, at least six people were killed and more than 600 wounded in clashes between the pro and anti-Morsi groups, the Reuters news agency reported.

The main opposition Tamarod - Arabic for rebellion - movement, which led the demonstrations, gave Morsi a deadline of Tuesday to quit, threatening a campaign of civil disobedience if he stays.

The number of people who joined in protests on Sunday, the anniversary of Morsi's first year in office, was between 14m and 17m people, the interior ministry told Al Jazeera.

"It is absolutely fair to say that an unprecedented number of Egyptians went to the streets accross the country," said Al Jazeera's Hoda Abdel Hamid, reporting from Cairo.

She added that a statement from Morsi during the protests was not welcomed by many, as it did not offer anything new.

In the message released on Sunday, he said: "I believe we can come together and find a way that builds our country," and he could "engage in national dialogue."

In its statement, Tamarod urged "state institutions including the army, the police and the judiciary to clearly side with the popular will as represented by the crowds."

The group also rejected presidential calls for dialogue, saying: "There is no way to accept any halfway measures.

"There is no alternative other than the peaceful end of power of the Muslim Brotherhood and its representative, Mohamed Morsi."

Morsi supporters

A few kilometres away from the presidential palace, thousands of Morsi supporters also staged their own sit-in to show support for their president.

"If we are saying that we have a majority, and the opposition are saying that they have a majority, how can they decide?" asked Nader Omran, a spokesman for the Freedom and Justice Party, the political wing of the Muslim Brotherhood.

"What is the other solution for this dilemma, except the ballot box?"

Presidential spokesman Omar Amer said Morsi was serious in his repeated calls for national dialogue.

"[Morsi] announced to all of Egypt's people he made mistakes and that he is in the process of fixing these mistakes," Amer told a late-night news conference.

The duelling rallies on Sunday only further highlighted the deepening political polarisation in Egypt.

Morsi supporters are full of praise for his first year in office, insisting that the president has strengthened civilian rule in Egypt and done his best to manage a failing economy.

Many of them dismissed Sunday’s protests as the work of ex-regime figures and “thugs”, fuelled by a hostile media and Western governments.

Anti-government protesters, on the other hand, dismissed Morsi’s first term as a failure and described him as a dictatorial leader. Many accused him of backing the Palestinian group Hamas and other armed groups; one well-dressed man in Tahrir insisted that Morsi planned to cede the Sinai peninsula to Hamas.

But their main complaint was the worsening economy, which has been in free-fall since Morsi took office, with the Egyptian pound losing nearly 20 percent of its value and industry crippled by fuel and electricity shortages.

"He's borrowed money from everyone in the world," said Said Ahmed, referring to $11bn in loans Egypt has received from Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Turkey to prop up the economy. "Who's going to pay for that? Our children."
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Old 07-05-2013, 10:57 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
No, Obama's is incoherent. The other five had reasonably coherent approaches, for better or for worse. That doesn't mean one size fits all.
Yeah, no.
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:54 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Yeah... the global market for military armament isn't exactly the veggie aisle at the supermarket.

We're Egypt's suppliers of the best weapons and billions in aid. Egypt's military needs us more than we need them.
We have synergistic interests which is why we should have been working with the Egyptian military to promote reforms from the beginning. Instead, Obama threatens (in his typical hollow style) the military and effectively sides first with a popular uprising with predictably anti-American inclinations and ultimately with the Muslim Brotherhood up to the point where the MB have already been deposed.
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Old 07-05-2013, 01:57 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
We have synergistic interests which is why we should have been working with the Egyptian military to promote reforms from the beginning. Instead, Obama threatens (in his typical hollow style) the military and effectively sides first with a popular uprising with predictably anti-American inclinations and ultimately with the Muslim Brotherhood up to the point where the MB have already been deposed.
Easy peasy...Where on the map is your fantasyland located? This place where the US president says a few supportive words, waves his hand, and everything turns out perfectly would be interesting to visit.
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Old 07-05-2013, 02:01 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Easy peasy...Where on the map is your fantasyland located? This place where the US president says a few supportive words, waves his hand, and everything turns out perfectly would be interesting to visit.
Everything has been working out pretty well there for 30+ years, through both Republican and democrat administrations, before Obama got involved.

It's probably hard for you to remember that before Obama was president, the US had a reasonable amount of influence in the world and US diplomacy was capable of impacting positive change. After 4 years of Obama, diplomacy does indeed appear to be reduced to mere words and hand waving.
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Old 07-05-2013, 02:12 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Everything has been working out pretty well there for 30+ years, through both Republican and democrat administrations, before Obama got involved.

It's probably hard for you to remember that before Obama was president, the US had a reasonable amount of influence in the world and US diplomacy was capable of impacting positive change. After 4 years of Obama, diplomacy does indeed appear to be reduced to mere words and hand waving.
Simply ridiculous. Egypt is Obama's fault.
Geez...at least when we blame W Bush for stuff, it is stuff that actually has a direct connection to him.
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Old 07-05-2013, 03:08 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Simply ridiculous. Egypt is Obama's fault.
Geez...at least when we blame W Bush for stuff, it is stuff that actually has a direct connection to him.
You're detached from reality on this.
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Old 07-05-2013, 04:00 PM   #127
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Absolutely not. Which is why I oppose military coups.



Depends how you mean homogenize. I expect, under the best circumstances, that they will become bitter political rivals of whoever else in power, much like the Republicans are today in the US.

Under the worst circumstances, the military will persecute them, lock them up in jail (for... what, exactly?), and potentially incite a civil war.

Those are just two extremes of the situation, at least.



I am not terribly surprised by them. That's why I opposed the coup.

I agree with you -- it's extremely precarious. This whole transition is on a knife's edge, and like the author in the piece above said, it sets a deeply troubling precedent for the future.
How do you feel the Egyptian's could have attained the rights they were demanding without some kind of coup or dramatic shift in their power structure?
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Old 07-05-2013, 05:21 PM   #128
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Let me ask a question for everybody in this thread in favor of this coup:

If the U.S. military chose to remove Obama from office after 1 year, would you have supported it?

Why or why not, and how is this different from Egypt?
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Old 07-05-2013, 05:25 PM   #129
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How do you feel the Egyptian's could have attained the rights they were demanding without some kind of coup or dramatic shift in their power structure?
The thing is, I don't have the burden to prove that legal, constitutional means should be used. That's the status quo position.

The burden is on people who need to argue that legal, constitutional means should have been dispensed with.

"It would be really, really hard" is a shit argument against throwing a country's constitution aside.
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Old 07-05-2013, 05:29 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Let me ask a question for everybody in this thread in favor of this coup:

If the U.S. military chose to remove Obama from office after 1 year, would you have supported it?

Why or why not, and how is this different from Egypt?
I don't support the coup, but that's a terrible comparison. The US has hundreds of years of peaceful transitions of power. That's not really the case in Egypt at the moment.
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Old 07-05-2013, 05:31 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Let me ask a question for everybody in this thread in favor of this coup:

If the U.S. military chose to remove Obama from office after 1 year, would you have supported it?

Why or why not, and how is this different from Egypt?
I'm curious what other options there were. Here we have impeachment. Is there an option like that in Egypt?
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Old 07-05-2013, 05:34 PM   #132
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The thing is, I don't have the burden to prove that legal, constitutional means should be used. That's the status quo position.
This smells like a dodge to me.

You are advocating that there was a more peaceful alternative than the egyptian military coup. If that is true, than what do you believe the protestors should have pursued to re-attain the rights which had been stripped from their grasp? You can't criticize a political process without advocating a real alternative.

Also, your comparison of the political processes of the U.S. and Egypt possesses little to no validity.
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Old 07-05-2013, 05:47 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Let me ask a question for everybody in this thread in favor of this coup:

If the U.S. military chose to remove Obama from office after 1 year, would you have supported it?

Why or why not, and how is this different from Egypt?
No, because we are civilized and despite Obama's many failures, our country is still in adequate economic and political shape to remain that way. We have plenty of good liberal (in the 18th century sense, not in the FDR/LBJ/Bernie Sanders sense) traditions to preserve.

Egypt has none of this. None. (teehee)
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Old 07-05-2013, 07:03 PM   #134
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I'm curious what other options there were. Here we have impeachment. Is there an option like that in Egypt?
No way. Gore recieved more votes than Bush, There was a long court battle and in the PR dept. Protests in the streets. Not a single act of violence.

In Egypt is a long history of the people being unsatisfied with the current leaders and there is a coup.

This is why the people are not upset about their new fledgling Democracy having a coup after one year. There is a long history of this happening.

And since when do we take politicians issuing statements as gospel. Do you not realize they are PR? That maybe other things are being done in private to further our interests?

I'm telling you guys again......if the muslim brotherhood fight the military, they will be put down ruthlessly and not always publicly. They are not going to tolerate violent dissension. Where do you think the CIA's retention captives end up more often than not?
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Old 07-05-2013, 07:30 PM   #135
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In politics its never good to make a big deal of backing a loser. Obama made a big deal of his man love for Morsi regime and the Brotherhood. Once again he made the US look like a fool. **** him and all his Islamist buddies.
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