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Old 07-08-2013, 02:52 PM  
Saul Good Saul Good is offline
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Have you ever used steroids, HGH, etc.?

Just curious to see who uses or has used these types of products and what your experiences were.

Did you have a specific reason for using them?

Did they work?

Did you experience any side effects?
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:11 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Saul Good View Post
I can run over to the bar up the street and buy weed. No police officer will be waiting to arrest me. It's still illegal.

I can download songs, movies, etc. I probably won't get nailed for it. It's still illegal.

This is a pretty simple concept. States only have the ability to make state laws. They can't override federal laws. If they could, Obamacare would never exist in half the country.
Whatever.

Let me know when states make HGH and steroids legal. Then we might have something to discuss.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:12 PM   #257
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You do realize that none of that actually means anything in this case right? Sure the feds can declare something illegal, but making something federally illegal and having the jurisdiction to prosecute it is ENTIRELY different.

For instance if you go to amsterdamn and smoke weed what you did was a federal crime. No ifs ands or buts about it, you broke the federal law and it applies to all citizens. The difference is, the Feds don't have the jurisdiction to prosecute you for the act of smoking weed outside of the US.

While federal law may be 'supreme' it is ONLY supreme within the context of the constitutional powers given to the federal government. The Federal government does not have the power to directly make laws that apply in your state. Instead they rely upon the power of the interstate commerce clause. They can establish many things influence interstate commerce and that gives them the jurisdiction to regulate many things(even if that jurisdiction is probably a bit too broad).

Even with the broadest definition it would still be very difficult for the feds to prove that an individual growing and consuming for personal use influences interstate commerce. If the feds cannot establish interstate commerce jurisdiction they cannot prosecute.

Note the example of prostitution...not a federal crime. Trafficking across state lines is....but not the act...that's up to the states themselves. For instance the feds actually can't set a national drinking age. Why? Because that would be regulating the behavior of internal state affairs which they didn't have the authority to do.

So what did they do instead to institute a national drinking age? They actually made a condition to receiving highway construction funds to raise your drinking age to 21. That's why you saw places like Louisiana raise their drinking age from 18 to 21 in the mid 90s.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:15 PM   #258
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Okay dane...if Kansas legalizes HGH tomorrow, would you still be against it?
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:17 PM   #259
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You do realize that none of that actually means anything in this case right? Sure the feds can declare something illegal, but making something federally illegal and having the jurisdiction to prosecute it is ENTIRELY different.

For instance if you go to amsterdamn and smoke weed what you did was a federal crime. No ifs ands or buts about it, you broke the federal law and it applies to all citizens. The difference is, the Feds don't have the jurisdiction to prosecute you for the act of smoking weed outside of the US.

While federal law may be 'supreme' it is ONLY supreme within the context of the constitutional powers given to the federal government. The Federal government does not have the power to directly make laws that apply in your state. Instead they rely upon the power of the interstate commerce clause. They can establish many things influence interstate commerce and that gives them the jurisdiction to regulate many things(even if that jurisdiction is probably a bit too broad).

Even with the broadest definition it would still be very difficult for the feds to prove that an individual growing and consuming for personal use influences interstate commerce. If the feds cannot establish interstate commerce jurisdiction they cannot prosecute.

Note the example of prostitution...not a federal crime. Trafficking across state lines is....but not the act...that's up to the states themselves. For instance the feds actually can't set a national drinking age. Why? Because that would be regulating the behavior of internal state affairs which they didn't have the authority to do.

So what did they do instead to institute a national drinking age? They actually made a condition to receiving highway construction funds to raise your drinking age to 21. That's why you saw places like Louisiana raise their drinking age from 18 to 21 in the mid 90s.
Dane's entire argument is that HGH use is wrong because it's illegal. You seem to be using the "it's only illegal if you get punished" line of thought.

By that logic, HGH use should be just fine as long as you don't get caught.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:25 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Saul Good View Post
Dane's entire argument is that HGH use is wrong because it's illegal. You seem to be using the "it's only illegal if you get punished" line of thought.

By that logic, HGH use should be just fine as long as you don't get caught.
No that is not my point really. My point it anyone can say something is illegal but if the law is invalid in your case then who cares what they say. They don't have the grounds to take action so they can scream about it all they want.

It would be the equivalent to NY declaring that it's a felony for anyone in KS to own a magazine that has the capacity to hold more than 7 rounds. Sure they can make the law if they want and yes it would then technically be 'illegal' for people in KS to own a magazine that can hold more than 7 rounds. But since they don't have the jurisdiction to enforce NY law in KS it would be invalid to apply it in KS.

That's very different from saying it's fine until you get caught, because if the law is invalid in your case it's very different because it doesn't matter if they catch you, they still can't prosecute you.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:38 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Saul Good View Post
Dane's entire argument is that HGH use is wrong because it's illegal. You seem to be using the "it's only illegal if you get punished" line of thought.

By that logic, HGH use should be just fine as long as you don't get caught.
There are actually many legal steroids as potent as the illegal ones. There is an entire website for them. Prohormoneforum.com
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:54 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Saul Good View Post
Dane's entire argument is that HGH use is wrong because it's illegal.
That's nonsense.

Do you have any reading comprehension skills? You're almost as bad as GoChiefs at creating a false narrative.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:56 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Saul Good View Post
Okay dane...if Kansas legalizes HGH tomorrow, would you still be against it?
I'm not "against it". Go back and read my earlier comments for proof.

Furthermore, HGH is legal for doctors to prescribe to patients that need it.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:01 PM   #264
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HGH isn't illegal ... it's controlled


You can get a prescription to take HGH
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:03 PM   #265
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There are actually many legal steroids as potent as the illegal ones. There is an entire website for them. Prohormoneforum.com
Sadly, if you are going to jump on some 'roids, the illegal ones are much safer on the body than the oral ones you can buy over the counter. Too bad the government continues to be retarded about actual steroid use.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:05 PM   #266
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So I've been debating about if to weigh in on the general issue of T HGH etc.

Let me explain to you my case. I have established family history of lower than normal testosterone. My father actually never realized he had it until he got his level checked and it was zero. My levels have been monitored for a while and were always well below what they should have been for my age group and yet still not clinically 'low'. Understand the normal range for T is ~250-800nl. It's a huge range.

A while ago after talking with my doctor we decided to try augment my T levels to something normal for my age group. I had read up on some of the issues about adjusting T and I was somewhat apprehensive. Make no mistake the human body is a VERY complex system and when you start fooling with one aspect of it the consequences are uncertain.

I started with a low dose of traditional HRT to augment my bodies natural level and put me into a 'normal' T level range for my age. For a while it worked as designed. But like any complex system my body slowly adapted to the increased T levels and started to shut down my natural production(note this was over a period of months).

When my doctor measured my current T level it was again in the level I was at pretherapy and he wanted to increase my dose from an augmentation level to a full replacement. I said no. I didn't want to fully shut down my natural production. The reason I didn't want to shut down my natural production of T is because that's not the only thing that's likely to get shut down. There are many other things that could be stopped being produced and the consequences of that are uncertain.

For people who are already at 0T they have nothing to lose from full replacement because they aren't producing anything naturally. For everyone else that's hard to say and it could have a variety of consequences.

When we stopped my HRT my T level plummeted to zero and I felt marginal for probably ~ a week. But then my body restarted its natural production. To explain how complicated a natural system our body is, when I had my T levels tested 4 months later my T level was higher than we had ever measured it and I was taking nothing....

To say my doctor was surprised was an understatement, but after they discussed it with a few experts they have a hypothesis on what actually happened. Pediatric Endocrinologists actually do something similar for kids to shock their system into producing T again after certain operations. They'll use HRT on the patient and then stop it to jumpstart their bodies into restarting their natural levels.

So we elected to do nothing and keep monitoring the levels to see what would happen. Like any complex system my body adapted yet again and returned my T levels back to where they were in the beginning. Not wanting to go on to HRT we elected to try a different therapy which is what I am on today. Note I won't talk about what it is because it's not something you should be going to the internet to find out about. This is something you should be talking to your doctor about.

Remember above all you are messing with a very complicated natural system and no matter what you do it's going to try to adapt to the change you are causing. Those adaptations are all uncertain as to their long term consequences. As much as people want to say they can do their 'internet research' to find out how to do this safely, that's mostly garbage. You could read everything on the internet and know only a fraction of what you need to know.

Why? Because most of what's being done is utterly uncharted territory. You can say steroids are safe and cycles help prevent some of the bad effects, but the documented heart problems of long term users tends to outweigh that. We simply do not have long term controlled studies to say what happens when you fool with your body like this. Plus there is a difference between placing levels in what should be a human norm and pushing levels far beyond what the body is designed for to get a performance advantage.

You have a turbo in your car and crank up up the boost a bit and you're probably ok....you double the boost and things are likely to break. We can replace an engine...it's much harder to replace your heart.

So this goes back to my original question I asked a long time ago...what are you trying to use them for? Are you trying to use steroids because you're feeling old and think they might help you recapture some of your youth? If that's the case then get your T levels checked at your doctor. It is a really undiagnosed condition because our levels drop so slowly it's hard for us to tell how we felt when we were 'normal' versus now. I personally have a good frame of reference because when I stopped HRT I got to experience the difference between 'normal' and zero over the span of days. But if it happened slowly over time I might have attributed it to aging.

If you're looking at steroids because you feel fat and think it will help lean you up. My honest response to that is that the problem isn't the steroids it's you. Get off your butt and hit the gym and eat right. Make the commitment in time and discipline and it will pay off. Just pumping yourself full of roids isn't going to make you skinny it takes time and commitment and you still need to put in the time to see the results. Hell dropping weight naturally raises your own free testosterone because body fat increases the rate at which testosterone is converted into estrogen. Why do you think fat guys have man boobs?(ok that might be a postulation since I personally haven't seen the evidence but it fits the facts!)

As to those talking about why sporting competitions ban PEDs. They don't do this because it give people a performance edge. If they did they would ban lightweight shoes, fast swimsuits etc. They ban PEDs because if they don't people will compromise their health and probably kill themselves in effort to get an edge in competition. They don't do it because PEDs are cheating, they do it because they will seriously affect your long term health.

Consider that when you think of using steroids because you want to look better. Put in the time, hit the gym and eat right. Like everything in life there are no short cuts.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:06 PM   #267
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Sadly, if you are going to jump on some 'roids, the illegal ones are much safer on the body than the oral ones you can buy over the counter. Too bad the government continues to be retarded about actual steroid use.
Very true but more and more guys are just going with test only cycles to be safe.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:08 PM   #268
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Very true but more and more guys are just going with test only cycles to be safe.
Test only in oral form or injectable?
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:20 PM   #269
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Test only in oral form or injectable?
Injectable of course. Oral gear sucks(except dbol or abombs) and they are hell on the liver.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:20 PM   #270
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Test only in oral form or injectable?
Injectable . A lot of blast and crusing.
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