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Old 07-12-2013, 03:01 PM  
teedubya teedubya is offline
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Snowden's Statement Today in Moscow...

Hello. My name is Ed Snowden. A little over one month ago, I had family, a home in paradise, and I lived in great comfort. I also had the capability without any warrant to search for, seize, and read your communications. Anyone's communications at any time. That is the power to change people's fates.

It is also a serious violation of the law. The 4th and 5th Amendments to the Constitution of my country, Article 12 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and numerous statutes and treaties forbid such systems of massive, pervasive surveillance. While the US Constitution marks these programs as illegal, my government argues that secret court rulings, which the world is not permitted to see, somehow legitimize an illegal affair. These rulings simply corrupt the most basic notion of justice - that it must be seen to be done. The immoral cannot be made moral through the use of secret law.

I believe in the principle declared at Nuremberg in 1945: "Individuals have international duties which transcend the national obligations of obedience. Therefore individual citizens have the duty to violate domestic laws to prevent crimes against peace and humanity from occurring."

Accordingly, I did what I believed right and began a campaign to correct this wrongdoing. I did not seek to enrich myself. I did not seek to sell US secrets. I did not partner with any foreign government to guarantee my safety. Instead, I took what I knew to the public, so what affects all of us can be discussed by all of us in the light of day, and I asked the world for justice.

That moral decision to tell the public about spying that affects all of us has been costly, but it was the right thing to do and I have no regrets.

Since that time, the government and intelligence services of the United States of America have attempted to make an example of me, a warning to all others who might speak out as I have. I have been made stateless and hounded for my act of political expression. The United States Government has placed me on no-fly lists. It demanded Hong Kong return me outside of the framework of its laws, in direct violation of the principle of non-refoulement - the Law of Nations. It has threatened with sanctions countries who would stand up for my human rights and the UN asylum system. It has even taken the unprecedented step of ordering military allies to ground a Latin American president's plane in search for a political refugee. These dangerous escalations represent a threat not just to the dignity of Latin America, but to the basic rights shared by every person, every nation, to live free from persecution, and to seek and enjoy asylum.

Yet even in the face of this historically disproportionate aggression, countries around the world have offered support and asylum. These nations, including Russia, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, and Ecuador have my gratitude and respect for being the first to stand against human rights violations carried out by the powerful rather than the powerless. By refusing to compromise their principles in the face of intimidation, they have earned the respect of the world. It is my intention to travel to each of these countries to extend my personal thanks to their people and leaders.

I announce today my formal acceptance of all offers of support or asylum I have been extended and all others that may be offered in the future. With, for example, the grant of asylum provided by Venezuela's President Maduro, my asylee status is now formal, and no state has a basis by which to limit or interfere with my right to enjoy that asylum. As we have seen, however, some governments in Western European and North American states have demonstrated a willingness to act outside the law, and this behavior persists today. This unlawful threat makes it impossible for me to travel to Latin America and enjoy the asylum granted there in accordance with our shared rights.

This willingness by powerful states to act extra-legally represents a threat to all of us, and must not be allowed to succeed. Accordingly, I ask for your assistance in requesting guarantees of safe passage from the relevant nations in securing my travel to Latin America, as well as requesting asylum in Russia until such time as these states accede to law and my legal travel is permitted. I will be submitting my request to Russia today, and hope it will be accepted favorably.

If you have any questions, I will answer what I can.

Thank you.

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Old 07-13-2013, 11:07 AM   #46
KILLER_CLOWN KILLER_CLOWN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
There's no evidence that has happened, and he says it hasn't.
You will have to forgive Dave, Pat and Donger they make assumptions not based on facts nor evidence.
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:12 AM   #47
Taco John Taco John is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
We won the war in Iraq until we had a change of civilian leadership.
No we didn't. That's just stupid. Even you are not intellectually dishonest enough to believe this.

First of all, you can't lose wars you've won, regardless of leadership change. If they're won, they're won. Secondly, talk to any Iraq war veteran about this idea that the war was won. I have. They get very pissed about that question because they'll tell you that there is no such thing as winning in Iraq.

It had nothing to do with leadership change - Obama carried out the same policies Bush would have. It has to do with the fact that it was a terrible idea in the first place.


Quote:
And which liberties are we losing by enabling our government to monitor the global communications of our foreign enemies?
I wasn't aware that France, Germany, and Great Britain were foriegn enemies, but that's not really what's at issue here. They're monitoring the communications of Americans. We're losing 4th Amendment rights. I'm not sure why you'd ask such a silly and transparent question. I don't care if they monitor foreign governments. I am, however, bothered that they're unlawfully (by common sense constitutional standards) monitoring us.
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:13 AM   #48
Taco John Taco John is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN View Post
You will have to forgive Dave, Pat and Donger they make assumptions not based on facts nor evidence.
I forgive Dave just for the fact that he's a mental cripple.
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:14 AM   #49
mikey23545 mikey23545 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
I already have. There is no source listed for that quote.
Yes, the author of that tome just made the quote up...

****ing moron...
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:19 AM   #50
Pawnmower Pawnmower is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
There's no evidence that has happened, and he says it hasn't.
So he didn't go to China And Russia while leaking classified documents?

Wat?

If he released the documents to the media in the USA and stood to face the consequences, I might be on his side....

But the facts are that he fled BEFORE the leak....then leaked the documents......then refused to come back & face the music.

**** him and his high horse he rode off on.
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:19 AM   #51
mikey23545 mikey23545 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
I already have. There is no source listed for that quote.
Try this on for size, you pathetic half-ass American...

http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/ins...s/7_1_1950.pdf


Hopefully you have managed to download a pdf reader at some time in your struggles to master the internet.
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:20 AM   #52
KILLER_CLOWN KILLER_CLOWN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
So he didn't go to China And Russia while leaking classified documents?

Wat?

If he released the documents to the media in the USA and stood to face the consequences, I might be on his side....

But the facts are that he fled BEFORE the leak....then leaked the documents......then refused to come back & face the music.

**** him and his high horse he rode off on.
I would say it was a very smart move on his part.
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:21 AM   #53
KILLER_CLOWN KILLER_CLOWN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey23545 View Post
Try this on for size, you pathetic half-ass American...

http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/ins...s/7_1_1950.pdf


Hopefully you have managed to download a pdf reader at some time in your struggles to master the internet.
Link or it doesn't exist!
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"If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." - Thomas Jefferson
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:26 AM   #54
Pawnmower Pawnmower is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN View Post
I would say it was a very smart move on his part.


not if he was on the side of truth

why flee if he REALLY is a hero & patriot?
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:35 AM   #55
KILLER_CLOWN KILLER_CLOWN is offline
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post


not if he was on the side of truth

why flee if he REALLY is a hero & patriot?
Well for obvious reasons, corruption? Lack of rights to a fair trial? really?
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:36 AM   #56
patteeu patteeu is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
No we didn't. That's just stupid. Even you are not intellectually dishonest enough to believe this.

First of all, you can't lose wars you've won, regardless of leadership change. If they're won, they're won. Secondly, talk to any Iraq war veteran about this idea that the war was won. I have. They get very pissed about that question because they'll tell you that there is no such thing as winning in Iraq.

It had nothing to do with leadership change - Obama carried out the same policies Bush would have. It has to do with the fact that it was a terrible idea in the first place.
Your first point about not being able to lose wars you've won, is nothing more than semantics. If you'd prefer, I'll say we won the war and then Obama lost the peace.

The Iraq war vets I talk to say we won. I guess we're not talking to the same people.

Bush successfully surged to win Iraq despite the politics. Obama cynically retreated to win the politics despite Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
I wasn't aware that France, Germany, and Great Britain were foriegn enemies, but that's not really what's at issue here. They're monitoring the communications of Americans. We're losing 4th Amendment rights. I'm not sure why you'd ask such a silly and transparent question. I don't care if they monitor foreign governments. I am, however, bothered that they're unlawfully (by common sense constitutional standards) monitoring us.
We aren't losing any 4th amendment rights. You don't have a right to keep your shortwave communications private from government observation, why do you think you have a right to keep your landline communications private (when you don't own the landlines)?
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:55 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey23545 View Post
Try this on for size, you pathetic half-ass American...

http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/ins...s/7_1_1950.pdf


Hopefully you have managed to download a pdf reader at some time in your struggles to master the internet.
Fair enough. I stand corrected. Thanks for the link.

Wait, the second sentence isn't in that document though.
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:58 AM   #58
Donger Donger is offline
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I do think it's pretty funny to see the Paul people rallying around this quote though. You all agree that international law should trump national law? You are all UN-lovers?
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Old 07-13-2013, 12:00 PM   #59
KILLER_CLOWN KILLER_CLOWN is offline
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
I do think it's pretty funny to see the Paul people rallying around this quote though. You all agree that international law should trump national law? You are all UN-lovers?
No.
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Old 07-13-2013, 12:02 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN View Post
No.
Do you agree with this?

102. The principle that a person who has committed
an international crime is responsible therefor and liable
to punishment under international law, independently
of the provisions of internal law, implies what is commonly
called the " supremacy " of international law over national
law. The Tribunal considered that international law
can bind individuals even if national law does not direct
them to observe the rules of international law, as shown
by the following statement of the judgment: "... the
very essence of the Charter is that individuals have
international duties which transcend the national obligations
of obedience imposed by the individual State ".
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