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Old 07-12-2013, 03:01 PM  
teedubya teedubya is offline
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Snowden's Statement Today in Moscow...

Hello. My name is Ed Snowden. A little over one month ago, I had family, a home in paradise, and I lived in great comfort. I also had the capability without any warrant to search for, seize, and read your communications. Anyone's communications at any time. That is the power to change people's fates.

It is also a serious violation of the law. The 4th and 5th Amendments to the Constitution of my country, Article 12 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and numerous statutes and treaties forbid such systems of massive, pervasive surveillance. While the US Constitution marks these programs as illegal, my government argues that secret court rulings, which the world is not permitted to see, somehow legitimize an illegal affair. These rulings simply corrupt the most basic notion of justice - that it must be seen to be done. The immoral cannot be made moral through the use of secret law.

I believe in the principle declared at Nuremberg in 1945: "Individuals have international duties which transcend the national obligations of obedience. Therefore individual citizens have the duty to violate domestic laws to prevent crimes against peace and humanity from occurring."

Accordingly, I did what I believed right and began a campaign to correct this wrongdoing. I did not seek to enrich myself. I did not seek to sell US secrets. I did not partner with any foreign government to guarantee my safety. Instead, I took what I knew to the public, so what affects all of us can be discussed by all of us in the light of day, and I asked the world for justice.

That moral decision to tell the public about spying that affects all of us has been costly, but it was the right thing to do and I have no regrets.

Since that time, the government and intelligence services of the United States of America have attempted to make an example of me, a warning to all others who might speak out as I have. I have been made stateless and hounded for my act of political expression. The United States Government has placed me on no-fly lists. It demanded Hong Kong return me outside of the framework of its laws, in direct violation of the principle of non-refoulement - the Law of Nations. It has threatened with sanctions countries who would stand up for my human rights and the UN asylum system. It has even taken the unprecedented step of ordering military allies to ground a Latin American president's plane in search for a political refugee. These dangerous escalations represent a threat not just to the dignity of Latin America, but to the basic rights shared by every person, every nation, to live free from persecution, and to seek and enjoy asylum.

Yet even in the face of this historically disproportionate aggression, countries around the world have offered support and asylum. These nations, including Russia, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, and Ecuador have my gratitude and respect for being the first to stand against human rights violations carried out by the powerful rather than the powerless. By refusing to compromise their principles in the face of intimidation, they have earned the respect of the world. It is my intention to travel to each of these countries to extend my personal thanks to their people and leaders.

I announce today my formal acceptance of all offers of support or asylum I have been extended and all others that may be offered in the future. With, for example, the grant of asylum provided by Venezuela's President Maduro, my asylee status is now formal, and no state has a basis by which to limit or interfere with my right to enjoy that asylum. As we have seen, however, some governments in Western European and North American states have demonstrated a willingness to act outside the law, and this behavior persists today. This unlawful threat makes it impossible for me to travel to Latin America and enjoy the asylum granted there in accordance with our shared rights.

This willingness by powerful states to act extra-legally represents a threat to all of us, and must not be allowed to succeed. Accordingly, I ask for your assistance in requesting guarantees of safe passage from the relevant nations in securing my travel to Latin America, as well as requesting asylum in Russia until such time as these states accede to law and my legal travel is permitted. I will be submitting my request to Russia today, and hope it will be accepted favorably.

If you have any questions, I will answer what I can.

Thank you.

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Old 07-13-2013, 12:08 PM   #61
KILLER_CLOWN KILLER_CLOWN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
Do you agree with this?

102. The principle that a person who has committed
an international crime is responsible therefor and liable
to punishment under international law, independently
of the provisions of internal law, implies what is commonly
called the " supremacy " of international law over national
law. The Tribunal considered that international law
can bind individuals even if national law does not direct
them to observe the rules of international law, as shown
by the following statement of the judgment: "... the
very essence of the Charter is that individuals have
international duties which transcend the national obligations
of obedience imposed by the individual State ".
Define that first, if it's the genocide of an entire race..then yes...otherwise it gets cloudy.
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Old 07-13-2013, 12:14 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN View Post
Define that first, if it's the genocide of an entire race..then yes...otherwise it gets cloudy.
I would assume that since it's from Nuremberg, the international laws they were referring to are the crimes of the NAZIs.

What international law do you think Snowden means and why should it trump our law?
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Old 07-13-2013, 12:43 PM   #63
KILLER_CLOWN KILLER_CLOWN is offline
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
I would assume that since it's from Nuremberg, the international laws they were referring to are the crimes of the NAZIs.

What international law do you think Snowden means and why should it trump our law?
It's all in the original post, We have laws the supreme law of the land is the constitution. If that is not being followed then I don't see him as a traitor, it's really as simple as that.
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Old 07-13-2013, 12:49 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN View Post
It's all in the original post, We have laws the supreme law of the land is the constitution. If that is not being followed then I don't see him as a traitor, it's really as simple as that.
So you are saying that Snowden had an international obligation to tell others that we spy on them, and in doing so, violated of our laws. And you are okay with that?
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Old 07-13-2013, 12:51 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
So you are saying that Snowden had an international obligation to tell others that we spy on them, and in doing so, violated of our laws. And you are okay with that?
No not at all, I'm saying he fled because he saw what was happening to whistle blowers. He can speak freely from where he is at, over here not so much. This is about our laws being broken and thus far it seems no matter of national security but rather the rights of our people that are being violated.
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Old 07-13-2013, 12:56 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN View Post
No not at all, I'm saying he fled because he saw what was happening to whistle blowers. He can speak freely from where he is at, over here not so much. This is about our laws being broken and thus far it seems no matter of national security but rather the rights of our people that are being violated.
I don't believe that you can say the bolded part with any degree of certainty yet.

But, back to the quote that Snowden chose to use: Now that he's desperate to get to another country, he breaks it out. But, clearly he thinks that Article 12 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights trumps US law which he has broken.

So, I'm naturally curious if the people cheerleading him agree or not.
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Old 07-13-2013, 01:14 PM   #67
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It's amusing to me that all the same neocons who cheered miring our country in winless wars are the same ones calling Snowden a traitor. I guess neocons aren't just satisfied with having soldiers lose limbs, they need us to lose our liberties and identity too.
So says a guy that did not oppose the Iraq War when it started in 2003.

I argued that B*sh was starting a war on false pretenses and that just because the 1991 Gulf War was fun to watch on CNN did not mean that a new War in Iraq would not be very dangerous for the lives, and physical and mental health of the troops we would send there.

I remember that you were closer to cheering on that War than opposing it.

Snowden copied more top secret information than just anything arguably connected to any liberties.

And he shared that information in order to cause strife between the USA and other countries.

What is your definition of traitor? And how could it not include someone who has broken his promise to keep top secret information top secret? And who then goes around sharing it with other countries in order to compromise our country's interest.

I have not seen any revelations that lead me to think that the NSA acted beyond congressional authorization and it seems doubtful that the congressional authorization will be modified very much going forward.

If it was 100% my decision, I might have more limitations on the government data collection than what is going on, but it is pretty naive to think that Snowden has done anything that is going to lead to any changes about that.

He is just a p*ssy who broke his promise and everybody else that still works in intelligence will have more stress and strain put on them because there will have to be more safeguards.
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Old 07-13-2013, 02:00 PM   #68
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Well for obvious reasons, corruption? Lack of rights to a fair trial? really?
Who is corrupt? Why would he not get access to counsel and a fair trial? What you are basically saying is that no one can get a fair trial and therefore everyone should be able to break laws and flee and never go to trial?

I fail to see any logic whatsoever in your points....
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Old 07-13-2013, 02:06 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
Who is corrupt? Why would he not get access to counsel and a fair trial? What you are basically saying is that no one can get a fair trial and therefore everyone should be able to break laws and flee and never go to trial?

I fail to see any logic whatsoever in your points....
Our system is broken, Pretty sure that is the point he is getting at. I'm saying due to the nature of what he knows and what he is blowing open he is less likely to receive a fair trial. Several whistleblowers have been detained indefinitely without rights. Therefore what he did seems to be prudent.
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Old 07-13-2013, 02:12 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN View Post
Our system is broken, Pretty sure that is the point he is getting at. .
So the solution is to flee to china / russia / venezuela and release classified documents? Give up being a citizen of the USA?

Ok....sure...

LOL
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Old 07-13-2013, 02:21 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
So the solution is to flee to china / russia / venezuela and release classified documents? Give up being a citizen of the USA?

Ok....sure...

LOL
This wouldn't happen if our government didn't bully whistle blowers
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Old 07-13-2013, 02:21 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
So the solution is to flee to china / russia / venezuela and release classified documents? Give up being a citizen of the USA?

Ok....sure...

LOL
I don't think he's given up, but I'm guessing he enjoys his freedom and the ability to release information which we should already know about. I haven't seen anything pertaining to military secrets he has given up.
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Old 07-13-2013, 02:28 PM   #73
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This wouldn't happen if our government didn't bully whistle blowers
You mean like how we are bullying poor poor Bradley Manning?

What other whistle blowers are getting bullied?
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Old 07-13-2013, 02:30 PM   #74
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I don't think he's given up, but I'm guessing he enjoys his freedom
Well generally if you flee to another country, especially China or Russia, and then proceed to release classified information I would think you wouldn't be expecting a ticker tape parade and a big welcome sign...
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Old 07-13-2013, 02:33 PM   #75
KILLER_CLOWN KILLER_CLOWN is offline
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I find it funny that the establishment nuthuggers used to always say "If there were big conspiracies you would have whistleblowers" Now it's "these Whistleblowers are criminals, lock em up without a fair trial and throw away the key"
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