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Old 07-12-2013, 11:59 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Why My Brain Is On Fire

Comprehensive immigration reform.

That's it. That's why my brain is on fire.

You have:

1. A fair bill to have emerged from the Senate, with a huge majority.

2. A POTUS who would sign this thing in a heartbeat.

3. A House that, if this bill were to come up for a vote today, would easily pass with unanimous Democratic support and solid moderate Republican support.

4. Huge majorities of Americans that favor stronger border protection and path to citizenships.

5. The demographic future of the Republican Party potentially on the line.

And somehow, some way, this bill will not become law. Because the House won't even put it up for a vote.

For the most trite reason of all: because not enough Republicans support it. Even though it would certainly pass if it a vote was held. Even though it's conventional wisdom suggests this could cost them latino voters for a generation. Even though the public voted for Democrats over Republicans for POTUS, the Senate, and the House. And the only reason the Republicans have the House in the first place is because they gerrymandered themselves into it.

But that's it. The bill will not even get a vote in the House.

Otherwise, it's getting signed this weekend, becomes law of the land, provides this country with a gigantic economic boost, helps bring unprotected millions out of the shadows, drastically cuts into illegal immigration, and provides valentines for DREAMers, high-skilled workers, and others.

But, despite everything, this is not happening.

My brain. Is on fire.
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Old 07-14-2013, 01:19 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
I'm still waiting for you to explain why Bush Sr. only got 30% of Hispanics after the amnesty 2 years earlier.
Aaaaand I'm spent.
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Old 07-14-2013, 01:23 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Do you believe that there are millions of people whose lives would be dramatically improved by passage of this bill?
Oh sure. And I'm on record when Bush was president something had to be done. Once the critics concerns that the holes will be plugged as best they can I'll probably be for this one too.

But by your logic if improving someone's life is reason enough to pass a bill every bill would pass. I know I'm being cynical thinking your outrage is based more on political motivation than improving lives and if I'm wrong I apologize.
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Old 07-14-2013, 01:26 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
Oh sure. And I'm on record when Bush was president something had to be done. Once the critics concerns that the holes will be plugged as best they can I'll probably be for this one too.

But by your logic if improving someone's life is reason enough to pass a bill every bill would pass. I know I'm being cynical thinking your outrage is based more on political motivation than improving lives and if I'm wrong I apologize.
Well, you're wrong that it will improve lives. The CBO projects that it will actually increase unemployment. So it will hurt more lives than it will help. That's a very bad idea for Congress.
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Old 07-14-2013, 01:28 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
Oh sure. And I'm on record when Bush was president something had to be done. Once the critics concerns that the holes will be plugged as best they can I'll probably be for this one too.
Please restate this. There's a typo or two in here and I want to make sure I understand before I reply.
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Old 07-14-2013, 01:49 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I'll give you one political reason for the GOP to pass it:

Ever since the GOP base shot down a similar piece of immigration reform back in the second term of Bush's presidency, the rhetoric concerning Hispanics and immigration has grown more abrasive every year, and the party's share of the Latino vote has dropped every year.

Peaking, of course, with Romney's self-deportation platform.

This is a platform that sounds pretty acceptable to the GOP base, and near-insanely-stupid to everybody else. Combine that with occasionally racist rhetoric coming from the GOP and the party once again shooting down legislation (by not even allowing a vote which would surely pass the bill) that sounds perfectly fine to everybody but the same GOP base...

Unless you run Rubio somewhere on your 2016 ticket to wipe your hands clean of this fiasco, you're looking at a Romney-esque performance among Hispanics once again.
I'm not convinced. Even if I accept the idea that the GOP needs to support immigration reform to have a chance to win in 2016, there will be plenty of time to do it after the 2014 election when the GOP will enhance it's negotiation power by enlarging it's percentages in both houses of Congress. Your political argument for this bill is still a failure AFAIC.
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Old 07-14-2013, 01:51 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Even if I accept the idea that the GOP needs to support immigration reform to have a chance to win in 2016, there will be plenty of time to do it after the 2014 election when the GOP will enhance it's negotiation power by enlarging it's percentages in both houses of Congress.
Do you believe the GOP should just sit on all legislation for the next year and a half, then?
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Old 07-14-2013, 01:53 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Illegal immigration has dropped under Obama, so it's kind of hard to argue that he doesn't want to enforce border security.
You aren't this naive. That's an argument a snake oil salesman would admire.
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Old 07-14-2013, 01:56 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Do you believe the GOP should just sit on all legislation for the next year and a half, then?
Not necessarily. It depends on the legislation.
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Old 07-14-2013, 01:57 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Not necessarily. It depends on the legislation.
There's literally no legislation that could get passed in the next year and a half that you couldn't use that particular argument on, am I right?
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:20 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
There's literally no legislation that could get passed in the next year and a half that you couldn't use that particular argument on, am I right?
That argument could be used on any legislation. In the cases where it should be used, the GOP should do what it can to push a legislative decision out until after the 2014 election. In the cases where it shouldn't be used, the GOP should get the best legislative outcome possible now.

There's no hurry to resolve the immigration situation. If the democrats who think it has to happen now really believed it was urgent, they would have done something about it while they controlled both houses of Congress.
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:20 PM   #86
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Shield your brain, direkshun, gallup finds that a vast majority of Americans support a pathway to citizenship, including over 80% of Republicans.

Quote:

Immigration Reform Proposals Garner Broad Support in U.S.
Democrats, Republicans agree on many potential immigration measures
June 19, 2013
by Frank Newport and Joy Wilke
PRINCETON, NJ -- A majority of Americans would vote for each of six different policy changes that Congress is considering as part of a comprehensive immigration reform bill. Support ranges from a high of 87% for a multifaceted pathway to citizenship that includes a long waiting period, taxes and a penalty, background checks, and learning English, to a low of 53% for a law that would vary the number of immigrants the U.S. lets into the country, depending on economic conditions.


Over three-quarters of Americans support four of the six proposals in the June 15-16 Gallup survey. In addition to the pathway for citizenship, increased border security wins broad public support, as do a proposal that would allow engineers and scientists who earn graduate degrees in the U.S. to remain in the country and work, and legislation that would require business owners to check the immigration status of any employee they hire.

Fewer Americans -- although still a majority -- would vote for a law allowing a business to hire an immigrant for an open position after unsuccessfully searching for an American willing to do the job.

Democrats and Republicans Agree on Many Proposals

Five of the six immigration policy measures receive majority support from Democrats, independents, and Republicans, despite the intense partisan wrangling in Congress over immigration reform. The exception is the proposal to vary the number of immigrants allowed into the country based on the economy, which Democrats and independents generally favor but falls short of majority Republican support.

The largest difference between Democrats' and Republicans' views is found on the proposed measure requiring employers to check the status of employees they hire: 90% of Republicans support this, compared with 74% of Democrats -- a 16-percentage-point gap. Further, while 81% of Democrats support increasing the resources provided to the Border Patrol, Republicans, at 95%, support it almost universally.

Implications

The U.S. Senate is considering an immigration reform bill this week, and supporters hope that the Senate and the House will pass it, and that President Barack Obama will then sign it into law. Because many high-profile Republicans, including Florida Sen. Marco Rubio and Arizona Sen. John McCain, have signed on to the effort and made passage of immigration reform a priority, the bill's chances of passage are greater. Immigration had been a lower-priority issue over the last several years after a bipartisan deal supported by President George W. Bush failed in Congress in 2007.

A majority of Americans support each of six different immigration reform proposals when asked about them individually in a referendum format. However -- as was seen in the debate over the Affordable Care Act -- support for proposed legislation as a whole and support for its constituent parts can sometimes differ. Therefore, although Americans' widespread support for the six immigration proposals seems to suggest they would favor the type of bill the Senate is currently debating, this may not necessarily be the case.

Additionally, controversies in Congress have arisen not just over the bill's specific provisions, but also over the order in which the provisions become law, with some legislators insisting that the border security goals must be reached before other components of the bill kick in.

Regardless, immigration is not a high priority for Americans. Six percent say immigration is the nation's most important problem, putting it seventh on the list of specific problems facing the country. And when Americans were asked in a May Gallup poll about a list of 12 priorities for the president and Congress, they ranked reforming immigration last.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/163169/im...?version=print
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Old 07-14-2013, 02:31 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by FD View Post
Shield your brain, direkshun, gallup finds that a vast majority of Americans support a pathway to citizenship, including over 80% of Republicans.
And over 80% of democrats support tightened border security. The devil is in the details here.

Real border security or promises subject to change?

Immediate amnesty/citizenship for all or citizenship after a period of years, subject to border security certification, for people with clean records and who learn English?

It's when these details come in to focus that the fault lines are exposed.

Other than the political advantages available, I have no idea why democrats oppose effective border security as a pre-cursor to a reasonable pathway to citizenship for illegals with a clean criminal record.
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Old 07-14-2013, 03:03 PM   #88
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
That argument could be used on any legislation.
My point exactly. You are just exercising it on legislation you don't like.

So let's focus on why you don't like it, rather than exercising bullshit excuses you normally don't care about.
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Old 07-14-2013, 03:04 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by FD View Post
Shield your brain, direkshun, gallup finds that a vast majority of Americans support a pathway to citizenship, including over 80% of Republicans.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/163169/im...?version=print
You don't have to tell me. This is what I've been saying.

A minority has gerrymandered itself into the majority in the House, and is single-handedly killing this bill.
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Old 07-14-2013, 03:05 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
And over 80% of democrats support tightened border security. The devil is in the details here.

Real border security or promises subject to change?
The bill includes extensive language and funds dedicated to siphoning down illegal immigration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Immediate amnesty/citizenship for all or citizenship after a period of years, subject to border security certification, for people with clean records and who learn English?
Yes. Included in the bill.
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