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Old 07-16-2013, 10:59 PM  
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Interesting Study Regarding US Nonbelievers, Re: Categories Of Atheism

On June 6th of this year at the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga (UTC) Departments of Psychology and Learning and Leadership, completed research focused on nonbelief within the United States. This project was designed and implemented by Christopher F. Silver doctoral candidate and Thomas J. Coleman III a student at UTC. The research sought to explore the complexities of nonbelief identity in the United States.

http://www.atheismresearch.com/
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:40 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
John Rockefeller lifted more people out of poverty, fed more people, and improved more peoples lives than a hundred Mother Teresa ever could. He isn't thought of a saint because he made a profit from it.
I'd say that you've made two mistakes here. One is that you are assuming that Mother Teresa improved a great many lives, and therefore establishes a baseline of morality. She does not. She was a living expression of the tenets of her faith. In some ways very productive, and in some ways horribly damaging to the culture she served. Christopher Hitchens said it better than I ever could:

“When the late Pope John Paul II decided to place the woman so strangely known as “Mother” Teresa on the fast track for beatification, and thus to qualify her for eventual sainthood, the Vatican felt obliged to solicit my testimony and I thus spent several hours in a closed hearing room with a priest, a deacon, and a monsignor, no doubt making their day as I told off, as from a rosary, the frightful faults and crimes of the departed fanatic. In the course of this, I discovered that the pope during his tenure had surreptitiously abolished the famous office of “Devil’s Advocate,” in order to fast‐track still more of his many candidates for canonization. I can thus claim to be the only living person to have represented the Devil pro bono.”
Christopher Hitchens, Hitch-22: A Memoir

The other mistake you've madeis equating productivity with morality. I would agree that Rockefeller may very well have had a substantially more positive impact on society than Mother Teresa did though.
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:42 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by scott free View Post
I've always liked you Listo, the hundreds of your posts i've read convince me you're an intelligent, thoughtful guy... but this kind of completely dismissive retort is exactly what i cant stand from people who have differing beliefs.

Its almost like it isnt enough to simply disagree, there seems to be this innate need among atheists to demean and have fun with another persons differing views... where is the tolerance your advertised website preaches?
I do tolerate your beliefs. In fact I tolerate them well enough to have a discussion about them, rather than dismiss them out of hand. However I am not obligated nor required to indulge a lack of rational or critical thought.
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:03 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
I do tolerate your beliefs. In fact I tolerate them well enough to have a discussion about them, rather than dismiss them out of hand. However I am not obligated nor required to indulge a lack of rational or critical thought.
So you tolerate them enough to listen, rather than dismiss them out of hand, which would happen anyway.

You'll listen with a closed mind, thats honestly fine by me, i never figured to change your or others minds here... but i dont need you to indulge my lack of rational or critical thought, the things i've soberly witnessed and experienced need absolutely no justification from you or anyone else.

The Apollo astronauts, some of the most truly scientific minds of our time... decided to read from the book of Genesis on Christmas Eve as they rounded the curvature of the moon to view Earth during Apollo 8, or consider that Buzz Aldrin, a Presbyterian, took Communion on the night of Apollo 11 landing on the moon.

See, scientific thought and spirituality can and do "coexist"... but i wont bother trying to castigate or persuade you or anyone else of this truth, will you do the same for others who believe differently than you?
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:46 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by scott free View Post
So you tolerate them enough to listen, rather than dismiss them out of hand, which would happen anyway.

You'll listen with a closed mind, thats honestly fine by me, i never figured to change your or others minds here... but i dont need you to indulge my lack of rational or critical thought, the things i've soberly witnessed and experienced need absolutely no justification from you or anyone else.

The Apollo astronauts, some of the most truly scientific minds of our time... decided to read from the book of Genesis on Christmas Eve as they rounded the curvature of the moon to view Earth during Apollo 8, or consider that Buzz Aldrin, a Presbyterian, took Communion on the night of Apollo 11 landing on the moon.

See, scientific thought and spirituality can and do "coexist"... but i wont bother trying to castigate or persuade you or anyone else of this truth, will you do the same for others who believe differently than you?

I listen with an open mind, then apply logic and reason to what I hear. I've witnessed some of the brightest minds in my personal life being controlled by their own superstitions. It's not really that big of a deal if they can still function as adults. But no, I'm not willing to follow in someone's grand leap of fantasy, abandoning sense and reason, to indulge their whim. It's when a person stops being reasonable that they invite scrutiny. If your beliefs can't stand that scrutiny, then it's time to just shrug and say that you don't know.
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:57 PM   #65
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So we agree to disagree, but do not tell me that my, and millions of other equally and far brighter minds than mine are essentially, full of shit.

Thats all most people are really asking, i admit to the million things i do not know, why cant you?

I'm getting a somewhat hostile vibe, what does that Coexist website actually mean to you dude?

Anyway, i'm through with this conversation because its going in the same endless circle that all of these fall into (dont declare victory damn you!)... you have your deepest thoughts, others have theirs... why cant you just let it go at that, why must you "win"?

Thats all i'm asking.
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:12 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott free View Post
So we agree to disagree, but do not tell me that my, and millions of other equally and far brighter minds than mine are essentially, full of shit.

Thats all most people are really asking, i admit to the million things i do not know, why cant you?

I'm getting a somewhat hostile vibe, what does that Coexist website actually mean to you dude?

Anyway, i'm through with this conversation because its going in the same endless circle that all of these fall into (dont declare victory damn you!)... you have your deepest thoughts, others have theirs... why cant you just let it go at that, why must you "win"?

Thats all i'm asking.
There really isn't any "winning" or "losing." And I freely admit that I don't know. I'm an agnostic Buddhist of the Mahayana tradition. And that's not a Coexist website. It's a page of the Universal Life Church's website. The page is referred to as a guide to divinity. It covers the beliefs of many of the worlds religions in a general way. It's meant as a reference to be used in discussion and it qualifies as a living document according to the rules that the ULC has posted. I particularly enjoyed the graphic that they used, which is the graphic that you see in my sig. You'll have to decide for yourself what it means to you. To me it signifies that we are all, more or less, in this together.
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Old 07-20-2013, 12:44 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
Religion exists obviously, but the is zero proof or evidence of any of the supernatural claims religion makes.
I have all the evidence I require to maintain my faith but none of the proof you would require for you to begin to form yours. There's a difference.
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Old 07-20-2013, 02:30 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
John Rockefeller lifted more people out of poverty, fed more people, and improved more peoples lives than a hundred Mother Teresa ever could. He isn't thought of a saint because he made a profit from it.
Atleast RNR seemed to admit some of the things he didnt know there, you on the other hand, seemingly making sport of a woman who dedicated herself to helping anyone in need, of any religious persuasion.

The Rockefeller legacy is so riven with accounts of malfeasance and treachery its not even close... he fed more homeless because he could, Teresa fed them because she was compelled to.

You've been out to sea for too long my friend.
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Old 07-20-2013, 02:32 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott free View Post
Atleast RNR seemed to admit some of the things he didnt know there, you on the other hand, seemingly making sport of a woman who dedicated herself to helping anyone in need, of any religous persuasion.

The Rockefeller legacy is so riven with accounts of malfeasance and treachery its not even close... he fed more homeless because he could, Teresa fed them because she was compelled to.

You've been out to sea for too long my friend.
Rockefeller a saint, that's some funny shit.
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Old 07-20-2013, 03:12 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Detoxing View Post
I'm agnostic.

Personally, i feel that this world needs Christians. Some people need faith. They need to believe in a higher being and it keeps a lot of people's heads on straight.

If religion enables you to incorporate morality into your life, then by all means, be a Christian.

What i DON'T like is that fact that Christianity puts the fear of God into the heads of small children. They grow up with that fear. When i use to have these conversations with my wife, she hated talking about it because the thought of God not being real bothered her. It made her feel guilty for questioning its existence.

That's what the fear of god does to people. The fear of the unknown. Fear is a powerful emotion and no organization knows how to play it better than a Religion.

I keep my 6 yr old son away from religion or any talk about God. It is not allowed in my home around him. My Mother in law is very religious and i refuse to let her take him to church.

Not because i don't want him to be a christian, but because i want him to be able to, when he's old enough, make a logical decision on what faith he wants to follow. Whether that be Christianity, atheism, Buddhism or even becoming a Muslim. I don't care.

I just dont want fear to be a determining factor in his decision.
Bingo.

I commend you on not allowing your 6 year old son to be brainwashed. Let him decide once hes old enough to make a logical decision based on the evidence provided.

I always believed it was a chicken **** tactic employed by certain religions to beat they're superstitious beliefs into a childs fragile mind, scaring them with the fear burning in this unknown place forever for even thinking of things that are considered a sin or, not believing stories that until proven otherwise have no more credibility than other ancient myths.

It is why religion is as strong as it is. The beliefs most people have are the beliefs they were subjected to as a child.

So if its so legitimate and can stand on its own merit why go after them at such a young age? Kids will believe theres monsters in their closet if you tell them there is. Because the younger they are the more susceptible to things they wouldn't probably believe in if hearing it for the first time as a mature adult. the cycle keeps repeating itself with every generation.

Another thing, if fear has to be used to support your position on any subject your position has a credibility problem. Apply this to anything other then religion and everyone acknowledges that fact.

Sorry, but if there is a divine being (and there could be) hes much more intelligent then the way these man made religions depict him.
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Old 07-20-2013, 05:34 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by NWTF View Post
Bingo.

I commend you on not allowing your 6 year old son to be brainwashed. Let him decide once hes old enough to make a logical decision based on the evidence provided.

I always believed it was a chicken **** tactic employed by certain religions to beat they're superstitious beliefs into a childs fragile mind, scaring them with the fear burning in this unknown place forever for even thinking of things that are considered a sin or, not believing stories that until proven otherwise have no more credibility than other ancient myths.

It is why religion is as strong as it is. The beliefs most people have are the beliefs they were subjected to as a child.

So if its so legitimate and can stand on its own merit why go after them at such a young age? Kids will believe theres monsters in their closet if you tell them there is. Because the younger they are the more susceptible to things they wouldn't probably believe in if hearing it for the first time as a mature adult. the cycle keeps repeating itself with every generation.

Another thing, if fear has to be used to support your position on any subject your position has a credibility problem. Apply this to anything other then religion and everyone acknowledges that fact.

Sorry, but if there is a divine being (and there could be) hes much more intelligent then the way these man made religions depict him.
Now that you have my kids' religious training figured out, would you care to kick in for their orthodontia as well? I accept PayPal.
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Old 07-20-2013, 09:16 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by scott free View Post
Atleast RNR seemed to admit some of the things he didnt know there, you on the other hand, seemingly making sport of a woman who dedicated herself to helping anyone in need, of any religious persuasion.
And the only way she could do that was to use the wealth that others had made and donated to her. Not to mention by all accounts she would rather pray for the sick and dying rather then actually administer medical care. Lets take this quote:

Quote:
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people."

-Mother Teresa
That is a quote of a sadist. Anybody who finds beauty in suffering is a twisted human being.

Even if we take Mother Teresa at her most saintly, Rockefeller helped more people. He lifted more people out of poverty, donated more to public works, he made wealth for himself, his employers, and his customers.

Quote:
The Rockefeller legacy is so riven with accounts of malfeasance and treachery its not even close... he fed more homeless because he could, Teresa fed them because she was compelled to.

You've been out to sea for too long my friend.
Results matter more then intentions, compulsions, and feelings.
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Old 07-20-2013, 09:39 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
And the only way she could do that was to use the wealth that others had made and donated to her. Not to mention by all accounts she would rather pray for the sick and dying rather then actually administer medical care. Lets take this quote:



That is a quote of a sadist. Anybody who finds beauty in suffering is a twisted human being.

Even if we take Mother Teresa at her most saintly, Rockefeller helped more people. He lifted more people out of poverty, donated more to public works, he made wealth for himself, his employers, and his customers.



Results matter more then intentions, compulsions, and feelings.
I appreciate this post, its the stuff of good discussion.

But to me, the creation of money doesnt always equal some kind of wonderful aid to humanity, the money he donated to various causes was to him, probably nothing more than a nice tax write off that burnished his image.

Did it invariably help countless people, yes, i dont doubt that... but i doubt it was some grand gesture from the heart, it was a convenient way to establish and glorify his brand imo.

For everyone he fed, you can surely count 5 people who's lives he ruined in his quest for dominance.

That is a strange quote from Teresa, i havent yet figured out exactly what she actually meant by it, but its definitely hard for me to not give someone who thought nothing of wading in among leper colonies to aid in whatever way possible, the benefit of the doubt.

I mostly disagree with that post, but will be the first to admit i'm just some guy without all of the answers.
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Old 07-21-2013, 01:02 AM   #74
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Let me make this easy for you - there is only one category of atheist and its called 'dumbass'.
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Old 07-21-2013, 01:19 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott free View Post
Let me ask this question... how often do "religious people" come here to insult you?

Sure, there's plenty of that to be found out in the world by what even most faithful people would call nuts... but when was the last time a Planet poster came here to tell you you're full of crap for NOT believing?

My best guess is 3-4 years ago by one, single poster named "Believer"... outside of that, NO ONE has come on here and told you how ignorant and stupid you are for not believing in God.
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Let me make this easy for you - there is only one category of atheist and its called 'dumbass'.
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High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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