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Old 08-02-2013, 02:50 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Risking a budget shutdown or debt ceiling collapse to defund Obamacare is stupid.

So says the now-flaming-liberal Charles Krauthammer:

Quote:
Led by Sens. Mike Lee and Ted Cruz, the GOP insurgents are threatening to shut down the government on Oct. 1 if the stopgap funding bill contains money for Obamacare.

This is nuts. The president will never sign a bill defunding the singular achievement of his presidency. Especially when he has control of the Senate. Especially when, though a narrow 51 percent majority of Americans disapproves of Obamacare, only 36 percent favors repeal. President Obama so knows he’ll win any shutdown showdown that he’s practically goading the Republicans into trying.

Never make a threat on which you are not prepared to deliver. Every fiscal showdown has redounded against the Republicans. The first, in 1995, effectively marked the end of the Gingrich revolution. The latest, last December, led to a last-minute Republican cave that humiliated the GOP and did nothing to stop the tax hike it so strongly opposed.

Those who fancy themselves tea party patriots fighting a sold-out cocktail-swilling establishment are demanding yet another cliff dive as a show of principle and manliness.

But there’s no principle at stake here. This is about tactics. If I thought this would work, I would support it. But I don’t fancy suicide. It has a tendency to be fatal.

As for manliness, the real question here is sanity. Nothing could better revive the fortunes of a failing, flailing, fading Democratic administration than a government shutdown where the president is portrayed as standing up to the GOP on honoring our debts and paying our soldiers in the field.

How many times must we learn the lesson? You can’t govern from one house of Congress. You need to win back the Senate and then the presidency. Shutting down the government is the worst possible way to get there. Indeed, it’s Obama’s fondest hope for a Democratic recovery.
Is there a single soul on this board that thinks the Republican Party's plan to once again threaten a fiscal disaster to get Democrats and Obama to defund the ACA is a good idea?

Seriously, I'm asking. Is there a single person on this board that thinks this is a good idea in any way.
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Old 08-02-2013, 06:43 PM   #16
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
No one is seriously threatening a shutdown over Obamacare. This is a high profile way to establish Cruz and Rubio as two of the leading anti-Obamacare guys. It's a risky but potentially very lucrative position to take. If Obamacare falls completely flat on its face they stand to gather quite a bit of political clout by being the "I told you so" guys. Of course, if it miraculously doesn't completely suck then it bites them in the ass.
So you agree, I take it, that risking a budget shutdown or debt ceiling collapse to defund Obamacare is stupid.

Even if Obamacare """"fails"""", whatever you deem that to mean, that doesn't make their stance right now any more sensible, whether its vacuous or not.
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Old 08-02-2013, 06:45 PM   #17
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fan4ever View Post
So...the left is pissed that these Republicans are trying to defund ACA...
Swing and a miss.

Republicans have been trying to defund it since they took back the majority in the House. "The left" doesn't give a shit about that.

Threatening to shut down the government because of Obamacare, however, is stupid.

You either agree with that, fan4ever, or you don't. Or you can vote "present" on it to attack a strawman.

It's your call.
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Old 08-02-2013, 06:47 PM   #18
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
They wouldn't be shutting down the government to oppose Obamacare. Obama (or more likely, Harry Reid) would be shutting down the government because they don't like the budget resolution that doesn't fund Obamacare.
I see you copy-and-pasted Rubio's response. Three cheers for intellectual independence!

On what grounds, if any, would you find a shutdown of the government to be the GOP's fault?
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Old 08-02-2013, 07:09 PM   #19
patteeu patteeu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I see you copy-and-pasted Rubio's response. Three cheers for intellectual independence!

On what grounds, if any, would you find a shutdown of the government to be the GOP's fault?
I didn't copy and paste anything. I have no idea what Rubio has said on the subject, but if he agrees with me, it's to his credit.
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Old 08-02-2013, 07:11 PM   #20
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I didn't copy and paste anything. I have no idea what Rubio has said on the subject, but if he agrees with me, it's to his credit.
On what grounds, if any, would you find a shutdown of the government to be the GOP's fault?
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Old 08-02-2013, 07:16 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
On what grounds, if any, would you find a shutdown of the government to be the GOP's fault?
If a Republican House majority refused to fund the government's essential services, a general shutdown would be their fault.

In this case, a shutdown of the Obamacare exchanges would be the "fault" of the Republicans, but if the democrats reacted by refusing to pass the rest of the funding for government operations, the democrats would be to blame for that.
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Old 08-02-2013, 07:23 PM   #22
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Why is a shutdown a bad thing? Perhaps it is the very wake up we need
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Old 08-02-2013, 07:31 PM   #23
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How is Obamacare polling with the public? Is it going forward as planned or is Obama himself breaking the law by not implementing it on time?

So no, it isn't stupid to threaten it. Will it happen? No. But republicans might gain concessions on spending cuts.
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Old 08-02-2013, 07:35 PM   #24
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The only way Obamacare can be repealed is if both chambers pass it and Obama signs it. Shutting down the government doesn't defund Obamacare because its not funded through the annual appropriations process. This whole "plan" is just a fundraising tactic.
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Old 08-02-2013, 07:49 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by FD View Post
The only way Obamacare can be repealed is if both chambers pass it and Obama signs it. Shutting down the government doesn't defund Obamacare because its not funded through the annual appropriations process. This whole "plan" is just a fundraising tactic.
pretty much
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Old 08-02-2013, 08:05 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FD View Post
The only way Obamacare can be repealed is if both chambers pass it and Obama signs it. Shutting down the government doesn't defund Obamacare because its not funded through the annual appropriations process. This whole "plan" is just a fundraising tactic.
Except that Obamacare never had a mechanism in it to fund the exchanges. So they have not been funded. Obama regime does have to go to the House to fund them. Without exchanges being funded, and too many states not doing them due to costs—it will not work.
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Old 08-02-2013, 08:14 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
How is Obamacare polling with the public? Is it going forward as planned or is Obama himself breaking the law by not implementing it on time?

So no, it isn't stupid to threaten it. Will it happen? No. But republicans might gain concessions on spending cuts.
Unfortunately, I think it's too weak of a threat to even gain spending concessions. FD might be right about fundraising though.
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Old 08-02-2013, 08:21 PM   #28
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Old 08-02-2013, 08:25 PM   #29
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According to Heritage Action, FD is incorrect about the annual appropriations process barring defunding of Obamacare:
Isn’t defunding Obamacare impossible because most of the funding is ‘mandatory’ (or on ‘auto-pilot’) and cannot be amended via the annual appropriations process?”

No. According to the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service (CRS), the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) and the IRS, “will incur substantial administrative costs to implement the law’s private insurance reforms and its changes to the federal health care programs.” And while Obamacare provided $1 billion in mandatory implementation funding when it was enacted, HHS projects that this is largely spent. According to CRS, Obamacare “administrative costs will have to be funded through the annual discretionary appropriations.” Furthermore, annual appropriations bills routinely carry funding limitations to block all sorts of activities (for example, the Hyde Amendment), as well make changes to mandatory spending. These latter provisions are called “changes in mandatory program spending” (CHIMPS). Even if these riders were not so common-place, the stakes of so many provisions of Obamacare scheduled to take effect would present grounds for an exception.

“Isn’t defunding impossible because there is not a specific funding stream for Obamacare? Funding is embedded throughout the federal government and not specifically designated.”


No. Congress is aware of all of the programs that fund Obamacare because CRS has provided such a list and the Appropriations Committees are well-versed in the funding intricacies of the law. However, a blanket prohibition against funding all activities associated with implementing the law is all that is needed to halt implementation. Each program does not have to be specifically defunded.

Furthermore:
“If you don’t have the votes for a statutory repeal, why would you think you can get the votes to defund Obamacare?”

The Constitution grants the House of Representatives the ultimate “power of the purse.” If Congress chooses not to fund Obamacare activities for the upcoming fiscal year, the Obama Administration cannot act to implement the law. The President’s party does not control the House of Representatives, which must originate debt limit and spending bills to fund the government. And the House Republican Majority was elected in 2010, on the basis of its platform against Obamacare.
More Q & A in the link. Pretty informative about the process.

http://heritageaction.com/2013/07/de...ses-responses/
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Old 08-02-2013, 08:31 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Unfortunately, I think it's too weak of a threat to even gain spending concessions. FD might be right about fundraising though.
You're probably right. But does it make sense for republicans to go on record saying they tried to appeal it before the inevitable train wreck that is a out to happen actually happens?

I think so.
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