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Old 08-04-2013, 01:18 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Single payer would cover everyone, and save $2 trillion over 10 years.

So many of the complaints over the ACA by many of the conservatives would be put to rest, here.

Health insurance should be something that simply everybody has. The people in society who do not have insurance do not have it because they cannot afford it. It's that simple. Nobody wants to live without health insurance.

So if we agree on a couple basic things:

1. Everybody needs to have quality health insurance.
2. The people who don't have it are the ones who can't afford it.

...then why not accept a basic plan that (a.) covers everybody that is (b.) as cheap as humanly possible?

The best option for that: single payer. Every American is covered. Premiums take less out of everyone's pocket. Nearly $2 trillion is saved, money that can go into a now-potentially-explosive economy.

Why are we not doing this?

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2013/july/%...year-new-study

‘Medicare for All’ would cover everyone, save billions in first year: new study
Economist says Canadian-style, single-payer health plan would reap huge savings from reduced paperwork and from negotiated drug prices, enough to pay for quality coverage for all – at less cost to families and businesses
Mark Almberg, communications director
Posted on: Wednesday, July 31, 2013

Upgrading the nation’s Medicare program and expanding it to cover people of all ages would yield more than a half-trillion dollars in efficiency savings in its first year of operation, enough to pay for high-quality, comprehensive health benefits for all residents of the United States at a lower cost to most individuals, families and businesses.

That’s the chief finding of a new fiscal study by Gerald Friedman, a professor of economics at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst. There would even be money left over to help pay down the national debt, he said.

Friedman says his analysis shows that a nonprofit single-payer system based on the principles of the Expanded and Improved Medicare for All Act, H.R. 676, introduced by Rep. John Conyers Jr., D-Mich., and co-sponsored by 45 other lawmakers, would save an estimated $592 billion in 2014. That would be more than enough to cover all 44 million people the government estimates will be uninsured in that year and to upgrade benefits for everyone else.

“No other plan can achieve this magnitude of savings on health care,” Friedman said.

His findings were released this morning [Wednesday, July 31, 11 a.m. EDT] at a congressional briefing in the Cannon House Office Building hosted by Public Citizen and Physicians for a National Health Program, followed by a 1 p.m. news conference with Rep. Conyers and others in observance of Medicare’s 48th anniversary at the House Triangle near the Capitol steps. A copy of Friedman’s full report, with tables and charts, is available here.

Friedman said the savings would come from slashing the administrative waste associated with today’s private health insurance industry ($476 billion) and using the new, public system’s bargaining muscle to negotiate pharmaceutical drug prices down to European levels ($116 billion).

“These savings would be more than enough to fund $343 billion in improvements to our health system, including the achievement of truly universal coverage, improved benefits, and the elimination of premiums, co-payments and deductibles, which are major barriers to people seeking care,” he said.

Friedman said the savings would also fund $51 billion in transition costs such as retraining displaced workers from the insurance industry and phasing out investor-owned, for-profit delivery systems.

Over the next decade, the system’s savings from reduced health inflation (“bending the cost curve”), thanks to cost-control methods such as negotiated fees, lump-sum payments to hospitals, and capital planning, would amount to an estimated $1.8 trillion.

“Paradoxically, by expanding Medicare to everyone we’d end up saving billions of dollars annually,” he said. “We’d be safeguarding Medicare’s fiscal integrity while enhancing the nation’s health for the long term.”

Friedman said the plan would be funded by maintaining current federal revenues for health care and imposing new, modest tax increases on very high income earners. It would also be funded by a small increase in payroll taxes on employers, who would no longer pay health insurance premiums, and a new, very small tax on stock and bond transactions.

“Such a financing scheme would vastly simplify how the nation pays for care, restore free choice of physician, guarantee all necessary medical care, improve patient health and, because it would be financed by a program of progressive taxation, result in 95 percent of all U.S. households saving money,” Friedman said.

Friedman’s findings are consistent with other research showing large savings from a single-payer plan. Single-payer fiscal studies by other economists, such as Kenneth E. Thorpe (2005), have arrived at similar conclusions, as have studies conducted by the Congressional Budget Office and the General Accountability Office in the early 1990s. Other studies have documented the administrative efficiency and other benefits of Canada’s single-payer system in comparison with the current U.S. system.

Friedman’s research was commissioned by Physicians for a National Health Program, a nonprofit research and educational organization of more than 18,000 doctors nationwide, which wanted to find out how much a single-payer system would cost today and how it could be financed.
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Old 08-04-2013, 02:03 PM   #16
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by Discuss Thrower View Post
If people accept the fact services will have to be rationed and loved ones may die or be in pain for an extended duration then go for it.
People are fine with their care being rationed now, are they not?
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Old 08-04-2013, 02:03 PM   #17
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Old 08-04-2013, 02:07 PM   #18
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Single payer is WORLDS better than Obamacare and yet still a complete piece of shit.

Some reasons why single payer blows goats...

It guarantees everyone has coverage but does not guarantee that they will actually get medical care. "Free" health care means that there will be a metric ton of abuse. People going to the doctor for every ridiculous little thing. The system can't handle this so you end up with some form of rationing. Maybe that means huge wait times, maybe it means "panels", I have no clue what form it would take but it absolutely would be a necessary fact of life

The THEORY that it would save on administrative costs is sound until of course you take into account reality. As a government program it will be subject to the same bloat over time that all govt programs suffer from. It will also inherently contain a political element that will allow various lobbies to insert their own pork into the programs. Absolute nightmare in the long term.

Lastly, we already are seeing more and more doctors retiring early to avoid Obamacare. What do you think would happen with single payer? Welcome to a world where going to the doctor will be very much like calling Dell for tech support. (Don't believe me? Go to England.)
Again, with the rationing. Is there not ample rationing in our current healthcare market, even pre-Obamacare? And by ample, I mean ample.

As for saving administrative costs... well. We don't need to get into how hilariously inefficient insurance companies are. They run huge businesses with comparatively shitty profit margins. Medicare's administration costs are great by comparison.
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Old 08-04-2013, 02:07 PM   #19
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by Bo's Pelini View Post
No it won't
Explain yourself.
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Old 08-04-2013, 02:10 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Single payer is WORLDS better than Obamacare and yet still a complete piece of shit.

Some reasons why single payer blows goats...

It guarantees everyone has coverage but does not guarantee that they will actually get medical care. "Free" health care means that there will be a metric ton of abuse. People going to the doctor for every ridiculous little thing. The system can't handle this so you end up with some form of rationing. Maybe that means huge wait times, maybe it means "panels", I have no clue what form it would take but it absolutely would be a necessary fact of life

The THEORY that it would save on administrative costs is sound until of course you take into account reality. As a government program it will be subject to the same bloat over time that all govt programs suffer from. It will also inherently contain a political element that will allow various lobbies to insert their own pork into the programs. Absolute nightmare in the long term.

Lastly, we already are seeing more and more doctors retiring early to avoid Obamacare. What do you think would happen with single payer? Welcome to a world where going to the doctor will be very much like calling Dell for tech support. (Don't believe me? Go to England.)
Those damned biased health care quality metrics are as bad as 538.
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Old 08-04-2013, 02:11 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
People are fine with their care being rationed now, are they not?
No, because it's the people who don't have insurance and can't receive expensive care or effective consistent care who are the ones receiving rationed care.
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Old 08-04-2013, 02:13 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
1. Everybody needs to have quality health insurance.
No, everyone doesn't.
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Old 08-04-2013, 02:14 PM   #23
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I have met and talked to people from Canada. They have all talked about waiting lists where they basically wait out the patients. If you die before treatment it saves money. Directshun is a worthless shitbag and some I would enjoy kicking the shit out of~
Yeah, same as the UK, but it's "free."

Of course, just ignore that $7.00/gallon gas. That's just a coincidence.
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Old 08-04-2013, 02:16 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Welcome to a hilariously small minority opinion.

Who among us does not need health insurance?
The vast majority of people need only a high-deductible plan. People who are wealthy don't really need any.
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Old 08-04-2013, 02:19 PM   #25
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Speaking of that, Direckshun, would you be okay with a massive hike in fuel taxation to pay for full-on socialized medicine? If not, why not?
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Old 08-04-2013, 02:20 PM   #26
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The vast majority of people need only a high-deductible plan. People who are wealthy don't really need any.
Whoa. I thought you were dead. Good to see you amongst the living.
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Old 08-04-2013, 02:29 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Again, with the rationing. Is there not ample rationing in our current healthcare market, even pre-Obamacare? And by ample, I mean ample.
If you think we have rationing in our current system you are ****ing nuts. Jesus dude, grow up and try to live in the REAL WORLD for a change. It's like you live in a cave with nothing but MSNBC to shape your view of reality.

Here's a question for you. In your perfect socialist healthcare utopia will a doctor be ALLOWED to refuse govt insured patients? Would people still be allowed to have their own private health care?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
As for saving administrative costs... well. We don't need to get into how hilariously inefficient insurance companies are. They run huge businesses with comparatively shitty profit margins. Medicare's administration costs are great by comparison.
Yes insurance companies are inefficient... mainly because of the insane govt protections that make certain there isn't anything close to a free market to punish that inefficiency.
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Old 08-04-2013, 02:40 PM   #28
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Yeah, same as the UK, but it's "free."

Of course, just ignore that $7.00/gallon gas. That's just a coincidence.
He is a perfect example of what is wrong with this country. He is the enemy and needs to be treated as such~
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Old 08-04-2013, 02:53 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Single payer is WORLDS better than Obamacare and yet still a complete piece of shit.

Some reasons why single payer blows goats...

It guarantees everyone has coverage but does not guarantee that they will actually get medical care. "Free" health care means that there will be a metric ton of abuse. People going to the doctor for every ridiculous little thing. The system can't handle this so you end up with some form of rationing. Maybe that means huge wait times, maybe it means "panels", I have no clue what form it would take but it absolutely would be a necessary fact of life

The THEORY that it would save on administrative costs is sound until of course you take into account reality. As a government program it will be subject to the same bloat over time that all govt programs suffer from. It will also inherently contain a political element that will allow various lobbies to insert their own pork into the programs. Absolute nightmare in the long term.

Lastly, we already are seeing more and more doctors retiring early to avoid Obamacare. What do you think would happen with single payer? Welcome to a world where going to the doctor will be very much like calling Dell for tech support. (Don't believe me? Go to England.)
I remember years ago working for an employer who paid for most of the cost of an excellent health insurance plan for his employees.

One of my fellow employees was an ultra-hypochondriac, and the slightest sniffle or ache sent her scampering to the doctor. She was rarely at work because she was always seeing one doctor or the other.

She once twisted her ankle at home, and immediately went rushing to the ER. She was examined and was told it was nothing but a mild sprain. Outraged, she immediately demanded they do an X-Ray of her ankle. They complied, and the results were negative for any kind of break. Now nearly apoplectic, she told them to perform an MRI, or they be facing a lawsuit.

Because of the insurance we had, her cost for all this retardedness: Zilch.

After she told me this story later at work, I lamented that they didn't do an MRI on the body part that was causing all the trouble - her head.

At least I didn't have to bother talking to her anymore.
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Old 08-04-2013, 02:56 PM   #30
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Oh, BTW, the point of that whole story is that tards like Ereckshun think that free medical care will have a certain cost, never realizing the way people use the medical system changes incredibly if it is free to them.
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