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Old 08-04-2013, 01:18 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Single payer would cover everyone, and save $2 trillion over 10 years.

So many of the complaints over the ACA by many of the conservatives would be put to rest, here.

Health insurance should be something that simply everybody has. The people in society who do not have insurance do not have it because they cannot afford it. It's that simple. Nobody wants to live without health insurance.

So if we agree on a couple basic things:

1. Everybody needs to have quality health insurance.
2. The people who don't have it are the ones who can't afford it.

...then why not accept a basic plan that (a.) covers everybody that is (b.) as cheap as humanly possible?

The best option for that: single payer. Every American is covered. Premiums take less out of everyone's pocket. Nearly $2 trillion is saved, money that can go into a now-potentially-explosive economy.

Why are we not doing this?

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2013/july/%...year-new-study

‘Medicare for All’ would cover everyone, save billions in first year: new study
Economist says Canadian-style, single-payer health plan would reap huge savings from reduced paperwork and from negotiated drug prices, enough to pay for quality coverage for all – at less cost to families and businesses
Mark Almberg, communications director
Posted on: Wednesday, July 31, 2013

Upgrading the nation’s Medicare program and expanding it to cover people of all ages would yield more than a half-trillion dollars in efficiency savings in its first year of operation, enough to pay for high-quality, comprehensive health benefits for all residents of the United States at a lower cost to most individuals, families and businesses.

That’s the chief finding of a new fiscal study by Gerald Friedman, a professor of economics at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst. There would even be money left over to help pay down the national debt, he said.

Friedman says his analysis shows that a nonprofit single-payer system based on the principles of the Expanded and Improved Medicare for All Act, H.R. 676, introduced by Rep. John Conyers Jr., D-Mich., and co-sponsored by 45 other lawmakers, would save an estimated $592 billion in 2014. That would be more than enough to cover all 44 million people the government estimates will be uninsured in that year and to upgrade benefits for everyone else.

“No other plan can achieve this magnitude of savings on health care,” Friedman said.

His findings were released this morning [Wednesday, July 31, 11 a.m. EDT] at a congressional briefing in the Cannon House Office Building hosted by Public Citizen and Physicians for a National Health Program, followed by a 1 p.m. news conference with Rep. Conyers and others in observance of Medicare’s 48th anniversary at the House Triangle near the Capitol steps. A copy of Friedman’s full report, with tables and charts, is available here.

Friedman said the savings would come from slashing the administrative waste associated with today’s private health insurance industry ($476 billion) and using the new, public system’s bargaining muscle to negotiate pharmaceutical drug prices down to European levels ($116 billion).

“These savings would be more than enough to fund $343 billion in improvements to our health system, including the achievement of truly universal coverage, improved benefits, and the elimination of premiums, co-payments and deductibles, which are major barriers to people seeking care,” he said.

Friedman said the savings would also fund $51 billion in transition costs such as retraining displaced workers from the insurance industry and phasing out investor-owned, for-profit delivery systems.

Over the next decade, the system’s savings from reduced health inflation (“bending the cost curve”), thanks to cost-control methods such as negotiated fees, lump-sum payments to hospitals, and capital planning, would amount to an estimated $1.8 trillion.

“Paradoxically, by expanding Medicare to everyone we’d end up saving billions of dollars annually,” he said. “We’d be safeguarding Medicare’s fiscal integrity while enhancing the nation’s health for the long term.”

Friedman said the plan would be funded by maintaining current federal revenues for health care and imposing new, modest tax increases on very high income earners. It would also be funded by a small increase in payroll taxes on employers, who would no longer pay health insurance premiums, and a new, very small tax on stock and bond transactions.

“Such a financing scheme would vastly simplify how the nation pays for care, restore free choice of physician, guarantee all necessary medical care, improve patient health and, because it would be financed by a program of progressive taxation, result in 95 percent of all U.S. households saving money,” Friedman said.

Friedman’s findings are consistent with other research showing large savings from a single-payer plan. Single-payer fiscal studies by other economists, such as Kenneth E. Thorpe (2005), have arrived at similar conclusions, as have studies conducted by the Congressional Budget Office and the General Accountability Office in the early 1990s. Other studies have documented the administrative efficiency and other benefits of Canada’s single-payer system in comparison with the current U.S. system.

Friedman’s research was commissioned by Physicians for a National Health Program, a nonprofit research and educational organization of more than 18,000 doctors nationwide, which wanted to find out how much a single-payer system would cost today and how it could be financed.
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Old 08-04-2013, 03:17 PM   #31
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Love it when a shitty plan is seen as shitty and is replaced by another shitty plan by the same ****ups who created shitty plan one.

Lets start with the notion HC is a right...that Government is the best to deliver any service and then watch this crash and burn.
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Old 08-04-2013, 03:44 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Welcome to a hilariously small minority opinion.

Who among us does not need health insurance?

the young and healthy of course

/sarcasm
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Old 08-04-2013, 03:46 PM   #33
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Pick your poison..

The other thing Direk forgot was this little factoid:

We do not deny anyone health care, we just let them use the emergency room


Therefore what is the cheapest way to do it?


First the Rebutthurticans dont weant single payer, they allow a romney/obama care

now that sucks and the old status quo is better because single payer wont work either

wahhh

****ing cry babies
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Old 08-04-2013, 03:54 PM   #34
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Also for the people who do not want a Romney / Obama style of system NOR a single payer, what exactly would be your alternative?

Really...what system would you choose to at least try to look like you give a **** about reality?
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Old 08-04-2013, 03:56 PM   #35
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by Discuss Thrower View Post
No, because it's the people who don't have insurance and can't receive expensive care or effective consistent care who are the ones receiving rationed care.
That's basically what I said, is it not? That health insurance coverage is rationed?
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Old 08-04-2013, 03:58 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
No, everyone doesn't.
Who doesn't need health insurance?
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:00 PM   #37
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochise View Post
The vast majority of people need only a high-deductible plan. People who are wealthy don't really need any.
So except for the wealthy, you agree with me that everybody needs health insurance?
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:01 PM   #38
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:01 PM   #39
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
Speaking of that, Direckshun, would you be okay with a massive hike in fuel taxation to pay for full-on socialized medicine? If not, why not?
Ha, is that my only option?
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:06 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Who doesn't need health insurance?
You are conflating health insurance with health care. You shouldn't, because it isn't the same thing.
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:07 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
So except for the wealthy, you agree with me that everybody needs health insurance?
No. Someone who is young and healthy and of reasonable means can pay for most things out of pocket and most all of them would be fine.

Whether someone chooses to go without insurance or not isn't any of my business.

It's also not any of my business if a person goes to a casino with their life savings or risks it all against a stock tip, or takes any other financial risk.
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:07 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Ha, is that my only option?
Are you going to answer or not?
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:15 PM   #43
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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If you think we have rationing in our current system you are ****ing nuts. Jesus dude, grow up and try to live in the REAL WORLD for a change. It's like you live in a cave with nothing but MSNBC to shape your view of reality.

Here's a question for you. In your perfect socialist healthcare utopia will a doctor be ALLOWED to refuse govt insured patients? Would people still be allowed to have their own private health care?

Yes insurance companies are inefficient... mainly because of the insane govt protections that make certain there isn't anything close to a free market to punish that inefficiency.
Of course care is rationed. Are there services that insurance companies refuse to pay for? Are there services that health insurance companies will only pay a part of? Don't many insurance companies have a limit over a timespan (i.e. a year) of how much they'll cover?

Yep on all three accounts. That's rationed care.

Single payer is health *insurance* reform. Doctors can and do operate privately. They can refuse whomever you want. Insurance companies can offer plans, such as gold-plated plans, that people can opt for instead.

I'd really like to see whatever research you've unearthed to support your theory that regulations are what drive up private administrative costs. It's not true. They do a ton of research and rescission on individual buyers that simply doesn't occur in single payer; they spend a small country's economy on advertising; their legal efforts are constant and expensive compared to single payer; and really all the paperwork done on individual buyers is insane. This idea that administrative costs are at 30% because of the government is laughable.
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:18 PM   #44
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
You are conflating health insurance with health care. You shouldn't, because it isn't the same thing.
I'm aware of the difference. I also know that in a lot of situations, there is no practical difference. If you don't have the insurance, you can't afford the care.
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:19 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I'm aware of the difference. I also know that in a lot of situations, there is no practical difference. If you don't have the insurance, you can't afford the care.
I've suggested that you not use absolutes. You really shouldn't.
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