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Old 08-04-2013, 01:18 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Single payer would cover everyone, and save $2 trillion over 10 years.

So many of the complaints over the ACA by many of the conservatives would be put to rest, here.

Health insurance should be something that simply everybody has. The people in society who do not have insurance do not have it because they cannot afford it. It's that simple. Nobody wants to live without health insurance.

So if we agree on a couple basic things:

1. Everybody needs to have quality health insurance.
2. The people who don't have it are the ones who can't afford it.

...then why not accept a basic plan that (a.) covers everybody that is (b.) as cheap as humanly possible?

The best option for that: single payer. Every American is covered. Premiums take less out of everyone's pocket. Nearly $2 trillion is saved, money that can go into a now-potentially-explosive economy.

Why are we not doing this?

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2013/july/%...year-new-study

‘Medicare for All’ would cover everyone, save billions in first year: new study
Economist says Canadian-style, single-payer health plan would reap huge savings from reduced paperwork and from negotiated drug prices, enough to pay for quality coverage for all – at less cost to families and businesses
Mark Almberg, communications director
Posted on: Wednesday, July 31, 2013

Upgrading the nation’s Medicare program and expanding it to cover people of all ages would yield more than a half-trillion dollars in efficiency savings in its first year of operation, enough to pay for high-quality, comprehensive health benefits for all residents of the United States at a lower cost to most individuals, families and businesses.

That’s the chief finding of a new fiscal study by Gerald Friedman, a professor of economics at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst. There would even be money left over to help pay down the national debt, he said.

Friedman says his analysis shows that a nonprofit single-payer system based on the principles of the Expanded and Improved Medicare for All Act, H.R. 676, introduced by Rep. John Conyers Jr., D-Mich., and co-sponsored by 45 other lawmakers, would save an estimated $592 billion in 2014. That would be more than enough to cover all 44 million people the government estimates will be uninsured in that year and to upgrade benefits for everyone else.

“No other plan can achieve this magnitude of savings on health care,” Friedman said.

His findings were released this morning [Wednesday, July 31, 11 a.m. EDT] at a congressional briefing in the Cannon House Office Building hosted by Public Citizen and Physicians for a National Health Program, followed by a 1 p.m. news conference with Rep. Conyers and others in observance of Medicare’s 48th anniversary at the House Triangle near the Capitol steps. A copy of Friedman’s full report, with tables and charts, is available here.

Friedman said the savings would come from slashing the administrative waste associated with today’s private health insurance industry ($476 billion) and using the new, public system’s bargaining muscle to negotiate pharmaceutical drug prices down to European levels ($116 billion).

“These savings would be more than enough to fund $343 billion in improvements to our health system, including the achievement of truly universal coverage, improved benefits, and the elimination of premiums, co-payments and deductibles, which are major barriers to people seeking care,” he said.

Friedman said the savings would also fund $51 billion in transition costs such as retraining displaced workers from the insurance industry and phasing out investor-owned, for-profit delivery systems.

Over the next decade, the system’s savings from reduced health inflation (“bending the cost curve”), thanks to cost-control methods such as negotiated fees, lump-sum payments to hospitals, and capital planning, would amount to an estimated $1.8 trillion.

“Paradoxically, by expanding Medicare to everyone we’d end up saving billions of dollars annually,” he said. “We’d be safeguarding Medicare’s fiscal integrity while enhancing the nation’s health for the long term.”

Friedman said the plan would be funded by maintaining current federal revenues for health care and imposing new, modest tax increases on very high income earners. It would also be funded by a small increase in payroll taxes on employers, who would no longer pay health insurance premiums, and a new, very small tax on stock and bond transactions.

“Such a financing scheme would vastly simplify how the nation pays for care, restore free choice of physician, guarantee all necessary medical care, improve patient health and, because it would be financed by a program of progressive taxation, result in 95 percent of all U.S. households saving money,” Friedman said.

Friedman’s findings are consistent with other research showing large savings from a single-payer plan. Single-payer fiscal studies by other economists, such as Kenneth E. Thorpe (2005), have arrived at similar conclusions, as have studies conducted by the Congressional Budget Office and the General Accountability Office in the early 1990s. Other studies have documented the administrative efficiency and other benefits of Canada’s single-payer system in comparison with the current U.S. system.

Friedman’s research was commissioned by Physicians for a National Health Program, a nonprofit research and educational organization of more than 18,000 doctors nationwide, which wanted to find out how much a single-payer system would cost today and how it could be financed.
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:33 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I wouldn't count out 99% of the ideas available for paying for single payer. That includes gas taxes.
Even though it is a "regressive" tax? You would be in favor of raising "the poor" and "middle class" taxes to help pay for it?
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:34 PM   #62
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Thanks BEP, but you forgot statist strawman.
Awe how cute. I feel honored though!
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:34 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Awe how cute. I feel honored though!
It wasn't meant in a positive way, kitten.
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:34 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Of course care is rationed. Are there services that insurance companies refuse to pay for? Are there services that health insurance companies will only pay a part of? Don't many insurance companies have a limit over a timespan (i.e. a year) of how much they'll cover?

Yep on all three accounts. That's rationed care.
Wow. You continue to amaze with the level of stupidity. So because INSURANCE won't pay for certain things... health care is rationed. Got it. So if I can't get caviar at the soup kitchen.. CAVIAR IS RATIONED!!!!

How ****ing stupid do you have to be to not realize health insurance DOES NOT EQUAL health care? My God man.

btw the only thing I can think of in health care that truly IS rationed is organ transplants... but that has zero to do with the topic.

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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Single payer is health *insurance* reform. Doctors can and do operate privately. They can refuse whomever you want. Insurance companies can offer plans, such as gold-plated plans, that people can opt for instead.
So doctors can refuse govt single payer patients... which means that most decent doctors WILL (the ones that don;t retire early to avoid this cluster****). They will only accept the higher paying private insurance and you are left with single payer health care being substandard. You do realize this much right?

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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I'd really like to see whatever research you've unearthed to support your theory that regulations are what drive up private administrative costs. It's not true. They do a ton of research and rescission on individual buyers that simply doesn't occur in single payer; they spend a small country's economy on advertising; their legal efforts are constant and expensive compared to single payer; and really all the paperwork done on individual buyers is insane. This idea that administrative costs are at 30% because of the government is laughable.
SWING AND A MISS! (pretty sure I lowered my IQ by 30 points just typing that)

You're on a tear today. Bringing on the stupid fast and furious. Go back and read what I typed and try again on your rebuttal.
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:35 PM   #65
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Also for the people who do not want a Romney / Obama style of system NOR a single payer, what exactly would be your alternative?

Really...what system would you choose to at least try to look like you give a **** about reality?
Most of us realize that neither of the rainbow painted picture systems you present will make health care better. Both will eventually lead to rationing way beyond what an insurance company does now. We've already seen it with Obamacare, penalizing hospitals for readmitting medicare patients. Yes, that is a death panel and imposed only because of Obamacare.

I've worked many years at a company that offers subsidized above average health insurance. That's a benefit they offer to select above average employees. In no way do I accept the idea I or any member of my family should have to accept equal health care with a McDonald employee making $15 an hour.

Instead of going big bang bull shit train wreck maybe democrats should have gone for insuring just kids as a start. Figure out how to fund that effectively and build on it. I could have gotten behind that.
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:38 PM   #66
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I am 29. I haven't had insurance since I was 20.

I hate it. I hate knowing Id be screwed if I get hurt. Screwed for life.
I am thankfully every day I don't get hurt.

I work two jobs. Neither offer healthcare. I can't afford my own healthcare, besides that fact that basic, cover only emergencies style coverage is one of the biggest scams in the country. I will never buy that style insurance. Waste of Money.

Yes, I want to be insured. One more semester left.
Sounds like you've had some bad luck and/or made some serious mistakes charting out your life.
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:40 PM   #67
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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I'm aware of the difference. I also know that in a lot of situations, there is no practical difference. If you don't have the insurance, you can't afford the care.
That is not true for all procedures or all patients. Cripes! What does a doctor's visit cost? Not much. A doctor will charge you one third to one half less if you pay cash. I've done it numerous times. You just don't want to pay for any part of your own healthcare and are a good example of how this same entitlement attitude has corrupted too many people in this country.
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Last edited by BucEyedPea; 08-04-2013 at 04:47 PM..
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:41 PM   #68
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That is not true for all procedures or all patients. Cripes! A doctor will charge you one third to one half less if you pay cash. I've done it numerous times.
This is correct.
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:42 PM   #69
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basic, cover only emergencies style coverage is one of the biggest scams in the country. I will never buy that style insurance. Waste of Money.
If you are young and healthy, paying through the nose for blanket annual coverage so you pay $25 instead of $125 for a primary care visit is the scam.

You also would not be screwed for life if you had a major illness or something. You'd simply be bankrupt, and screwed for 7ish years, I believe. If you consider not being able to borrow money "screwed", for many people it would be something of a blessing.
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:44 PM   #70
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The problem is that most people don't have insurance because they can't afford it, not because they don't want to be insured.
Not having a private insurance policy does not mean you have no coverage. There are very few people who have no coverage and who aren't eligible for MC, MA, any state level programs, or any other sort of program at all. Very few people are truly totally uninsured.
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:47 PM   #71
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This is correct.
I edited that a doctor's visit isn't gonna wipe anyone out either.
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:49 PM   #72
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Single payer wouldn't save a dime. There is no federal govt program that has ever saved a dime. These programs ALWAYS run into billions of dollars more than ever projected. This is a failure to learn from the history of the federal govt programs or learn that one never saves more than they spend.
NASA caused an economic stimulus of seven times in research budget.

The CDC and NIH have saved trillions in health care costs through the administration of national vaccination programs.

The GI bill allowed 16 million WWII and Korean veterans alone to go college. Their lifetime earnings increases substantially and more than paid for the relatively small cost of covering their college tuition.

Food stamps stimulate the economy.

Christ, the only reason you are involved in a conversation right now about how shitty government programs are is due to one of the most wildly successful and innovative government projects in history--one that caused one of the largest economic booms in human history.

Of course, you're the fool who once said that a corporation could have instituted the Manhattan Project better than government, so I'm not surprised.
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:50 PM   #73
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The CDC and NIH have saved trillions in health care costs through the administration of national vaccination programs.
Yeah, maybe, but it's lead to millions of cases of autism.
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:51 PM   #74
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Yeah, maybe, but it's lead to millions of cases of autism.
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:54 PM   #75
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Yeah, maybe, but it's lead to millions of cases of autism.
No, the statistics on those diseases were in severe decline, many nearly gone, before any massive govt vaccination programs. Cleanliness, refrigeration, no more horse feces on the streets, clean water and overall general improvements in living conditions due to technological advances brought to us from capitalism was responsible. I covered in one of the vaccination threads....but that's another debate.
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