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Old 08-04-2013, 01:18 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Single payer would cover everyone, and save $2 trillion over 10 years.

So many of the complaints over the ACA by many of the conservatives would be put to rest, here.

Health insurance should be something that simply everybody has. The people in society who do not have insurance do not have it because they cannot afford it. It's that simple. Nobody wants to live without health insurance.

So if we agree on a couple basic things:

1. Everybody needs to have quality health insurance.
2. The people who don't have it are the ones who can't afford it.

...then why not accept a basic plan that (a.) covers everybody that is (b.) as cheap as humanly possible?

The best option for that: single payer. Every American is covered. Premiums take less out of everyone's pocket. Nearly $2 trillion is saved, money that can go into a now-potentially-explosive economy.

Why are we not doing this?

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2013/july/%...year-new-study

‘Medicare for All’ would cover everyone, save billions in first year: new study
Economist says Canadian-style, single-payer health plan would reap huge savings from reduced paperwork and from negotiated drug prices, enough to pay for quality coverage for all – at less cost to families and businesses
Mark Almberg, communications director
Posted on: Wednesday, July 31, 2013

Upgrading the nation’s Medicare program and expanding it to cover people of all ages would yield more than a half-trillion dollars in efficiency savings in its first year of operation, enough to pay for high-quality, comprehensive health benefits for all residents of the United States at a lower cost to most individuals, families and businesses.

That’s the chief finding of a new fiscal study by Gerald Friedman, a professor of economics at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst. There would even be money left over to help pay down the national debt, he said.

Friedman says his analysis shows that a nonprofit single-payer system based on the principles of the Expanded and Improved Medicare for All Act, H.R. 676, introduced by Rep. John Conyers Jr., D-Mich., and co-sponsored by 45 other lawmakers, would save an estimated $592 billion in 2014. That would be more than enough to cover all 44 million people the government estimates will be uninsured in that year and to upgrade benefits for everyone else.

“No other plan can achieve this magnitude of savings on health care,” Friedman said.

His findings were released this morning [Wednesday, July 31, 11 a.m. EDT] at a congressional briefing in the Cannon House Office Building hosted by Public Citizen and Physicians for a National Health Program, followed by a 1 p.m. news conference with Rep. Conyers and others in observance of Medicare’s 48th anniversary at the House Triangle near the Capitol steps. A copy of Friedman’s full report, with tables and charts, is available here.

Friedman said the savings would come from slashing the administrative waste associated with today’s private health insurance industry ($476 billion) and using the new, public system’s bargaining muscle to negotiate pharmaceutical drug prices down to European levels ($116 billion).

“These savings would be more than enough to fund $343 billion in improvements to our health system, including the achievement of truly universal coverage, improved benefits, and the elimination of premiums, co-payments and deductibles, which are major barriers to people seeking care,” he said.

Friedman said the savings would also fund $51 billion in transition costs such as retraining displaced workers from the insurance industry and phasing out investor-owned, for-profit delivery systems.

Over the next decade, the system’s savings from reduced health inflation (“bending the cost curve”), thanks to cost-control methods such as negotiated fees, lump-sum payments to hospitals, and capital planning, would amount to an estimated $1.8 trillion.

“Paradoxically, by expanding Medicare to everyone we’d end up saving billions of dollars annually,” he said. “We’d be safeguarding Medicare’s fiscal integrity while enhancing the nation’s health for the long term.”

Friedman said the plan would be funded by maintaining current federal revenues for health care and imposing new, modest tax increases on very high income earners. It would also be funded by a small increase in payroll taxes on employers, who would no longer pay health insurance premiums, and a new, very small tax on stock and bond transactions.

“Such a financing scheme would vastly simplify how the nation pays for care, restore free choice of physician, guarantee all necessary medical care, improve patient health and, because it would be financed by a program of progressive taxation, result in 95 percent of all U.S. households saving money,” Friedman said.

Friedman’s findings are consistent with other research showing large savings from a single-payer plan. Single-payer fiscal studies by other economists, such as Kenneth E. Thorpe (2005), have arrived at similar conclusions, as have studies conducted by the Congressional Budget Office and the General Accountability Office in the early 1990s. Other studies have documented the administrative efficiency and other benefits of Canada’s single-payer system in comparison with the current U.S. system.

Friedman’s research was commissioned by Physicians for a National Health Program, a nonprofit research and educational organization of more than 18,000 doctors nationwide, which wanted to find out how much a single-payer system would cost today and how it could be financed.
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Old 08-04-2013, 07:04 PM   #91
HonestChieffan HonestChieffan is offline
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
this was me in college as well
You and he are the only two as best I can tell......
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Old 08-04-2013, 07:09 PM   #92
Pawnmower Pawnmower is offline
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Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
In no way do I accept the idea I or any member of my family should have to accept equal health care with a McDonald employee making $15 an hour.
Well, then thats why there is Romney care

the lower tier, younger people get huge deductable, catastrophe only style plans


I really dont have an answer man

But I can tell you one thing, if we dont at least try to get this Romney care style plan going, we are going to just have to keep swinging the bat at the pinata.

I'm not saying (and I don't think anyone is) that a mcdonalds worker should be on the same health plan as an engineer.

But shouldnt we look at ways to lower the cost when that mcdonalds worker breaks his leg, or gets old , or gets cancer? With your kind of attitude its totally short term, and its why we are in this mess now honestly.

What is your plan for the mcdonald worker when they cant work anymore but arent 62 yet?

What is your plan when the mcdonald worker gets cancer at 45?
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Old 08-04-2013, 07:10 PM   #93
Pawnmower Pawnmower is offline
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Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
You and he are the only two as best I can tell......
Youre missing the point moron. No one said it was just us..the point is in fact that that age group is the MOST under insured in the USA.....the point is that part of the reason to get young college kids in the insurance pool is to lower everyone's cost.

Are you retarded?
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Old 08-04-2013, 07:19 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
This is probably a waste of both of our time, but:

Which of the following premises do you disagree with, if either:

1. Everybody needs to have quality health insurance.
2. The people who don't have it are the ones who can't afford it.
Number 2 is definitely not true. I've known several people who could afford insurance but chose not to purchase it. They'd rather spend their money on other things.
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Old 08-04-2013, 07:44 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by jjjayb View Post
Number 2 is definitely not true. I've known several people who could afford insurance but chose not to purchase it. They'd rather spend their money on other things.
Sure, very few things are all true, but many more cannot afford it or the choices they would have to make would have short term living consequences (food, shelter, clothes for children, etc.).
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Old 08-04-2013, 07:49 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
wait I thought you liked single payer better than romney care

I guess youre full of shit too

just like those you despise
I do "like" single payer better. Where have I said any different? I also despise it. I just despise it far less.

The point of my post is that the far left never intended for Obamacare to succeed (since anyone with a brain knows it can't) they wanted to use it as a foothold to get the country to adopt single payer. That's some pretty shitty deceptive politics.
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Old 08-04-2013, 08:23 PM   #97
'Hamas' Jenkins 'Hamas' Jenkins is offline
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
I do "like" single payer better. Where have I said any different? I also despise it. I just despise it far less.

The point of my post is that the far left never intended for Obamacare to succeed (since anyone with a brain knows it can't) they wanted to use it as a foothold to get the country to adopt single payer. That's some pretty shitty deceptive politics.
Given that single payer enjoyed 60+% support in 2009 and was never even used as a bargaining chip by the Democrats suggests that you are giving them far more credit for designing a Trojan Horse than what they really deserve.
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Old 08-04-2013, 08:24 PM   #98
AustinChief AustinChief is offline
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Given that single payer enjoyed 60+% support in 2009 and was never even used as a bargaining chip by the Democrats suggests that you are giving them far more credit for designing a Trojan Horse than what they really deserve.
Probably so, but that was what the talk all over liberal Austin was... "Obamacare is ok because it will lead us to single payer"
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Old 08-04-2013, 08:29 PM   #99
'Hamas' Jenkins 'Hamas' Jenkins is offline
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Probably so, but that was what the talk all over liberal Austin was... "Obamacare is ok because it will lead us to single payer"
I understand that line of thinking, and it may be true, but it was more of a rationalization than anything else.

"How can we make the best out of cocked up legislation largely drawn up by the biggest insurance and pharma-whore alive (Baucus)?"

Of course, similar criticisms were also made about NCLB; that, in effect, it was an attempt to privatize schools through an onerous and ineffective metric of assessment-based funding.
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Old 08-04-2013, 10:02 PM   #100
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Probably so, but that was what the talk all over liberal Austin was... "Obamacare is ok because it will lead us to single payer"
I see lefties saying that on the internet too. It's not that uncommon. Right after ACA passed, I saw single payer being pushed.
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Old 08-04-2013, 10:21 PM   #101
HonestChieffan HonestChieffan is offline
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Single payer....every single taxpayer will pay for every freeloader. Freeloaders get the pass again.
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Old 08-04-2013, 10:24 PM   #102
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Get used to hearing more and more bullshit about the great "single payer" system that can save us from Obamacare as Obamacare circles the drain. Of course that was the plan all along.
No it wasn't, we will not have single payer in our lifetimes.
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Old 08-04-2013, 10:25 PM   #103
Pawnmower Pawnmower is offline
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Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
Single payer....every single taxpayer will pay for every freeloader. Freeloaders get the pass again.
explain how this is different from the current system

freeloaders pay now?
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Old 08-04-2013, 10:27 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
explain how this is different from the current system

freeloaders pay now?
That's your refutation? WoW! How 'bout we get rid of over 2000 mandates so we don't have anything like the current system?
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Old 08-04-2013, 10:36 PM   #105
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You know I'd love to write a full response but frankly it's not worth my time. Those who believe one side will continue to believe it regardless of any evidence to the contrary. Ignorance is bliss and some people are quite happy.

But here is a great example of the single payer world you want....we already have it with medicare. You want to know what happens? Many doctors simply refuse to see medicare patients because it's not worth the money to do so.

Quote:
The doctors’ reasons: reimbursement rates are too low and paperwork too much of a hassle.
In short you see fewer and fewer doctors available(and generally lower quality ones since the best will see the patients who can pay them what they are worth).

Quote:
The solution to this problem is to find doctors who accept Medicare insurance — and to do it well before reaching age 65. But that is not always easy, especially if you are looking for an internist, a primary care doctor who deals with adults. Of the 93 internists affiliated with New York-Presbyterian Hospital, for example, only 37 accept Medicare, according to the hospital’s Web site.

Two trends are converging: there is a shortage of internists nationally — the American College of Physicians, the organization for internists, estimates that by 2025 there will be 35,000 to 45,000 fewer than the population needs — and internists are increasingly unwilling to accept new Medicare patients.

In a June 2008 report, the Medicare Payment Advisory Commission, an independent federal panel that advises Congress on Medicare, said that 29 percent of the Medicare beneficiaries it surveyed who were looking for a primary care doctor had a problem finding one to treat them, up from 24 percent the year before. And a 2008 survey by the Texas Medical Association found that while 58 percent of the state’s doctors took new Medicare patients, only 38 percent of primary care doctors did.
This article is already 4 years old and the problem has only gotten worse since then. Do a single payer system if you want. It will only ever be an illusion. What you will create is the public system that takes months to see a doctor with marginal quality and a private system for those with private insurance that has the best doctors and facilities. If that's what you want do a single payer system. There are issues in our system but single payer is probably the worst route you can take.

The original article if you want to read the entire thing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/02/bu...alth.html?_r=0

But have fun arguing I'm out of here!
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