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Old 08-08-2013, 08:44 AM  
gblowfish gblowfish is offline
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NRA Wants 18-Year Olds To Buy Handguns

Because, there aren't enough 18 year old kids packing heat.....

Story is here:

http://tinyurl.com/mh8rkkm

NRA asks Supreme Court to lift ban on handgun sales to teens
By Ben Goad - 08/07/13 02:22 PM ET

The National Rifle Association is asking the Supreme Court to strike down decades-old regulations prohibiting the sales of handguns to those under the age of 21.

The powerful gun lobby is challenging a lower federal court’s October ruling that upheld the ban. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit ruled that the current regulations are consistent with a long-held view that young adults between the ages of 18 and 20 “tend to be relatively immature and that denying them easy access to handguns would deter violent crime.”

“As with felons and the mentally ill, categorically restricting the presumptive Second Amendment rights of 18-to-20-year-olds does not violate the central concern of the Second Amendment,” the court found.

The court noted it is legal for adults under the age of 21 to buy other types of guns, including rifles and shotguns. Further, parents or guardians can give their 18 to 20-year-olds handguns as a gift, and there are no laws barring either the possession or use of a handgun by adults younger than 21.
Still, the law’s prohibition of commercial sales of handguns to young adults amounts to a “categorical burden on the fundamental right to keep and bear arms,” the NRA argued in its petition to the high court, filed last week.*
The group argues that the regulations fly in the face of the 2008 District of Columbia v. Heller ruling that allows people to carry handguns for self-defense.*

“The Framers’ decision to enshrine the Second Amendment and this Court’s decisions recognizing that the right it secures is both individual and fundamental are decisions with consequences," the NRA wrote in the 224-page petition. “One obvious consequence is that individuals above the legal age of majority cannot be denied any meaningful ability to purchase the quintessential means for exercising the core individual right.”

Officials with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, listed as respondent to the petition, did not immediately respond Wednesday to a request for comment.*

The court could decide as early as Sept. 30 whether or not to take up the case.

Noting that the justices have declined to hear other cases involving firearms, UCLA law professor Adam Winkler said it is unlikely that they would grant the NRA's request, particularly because the lower courts have consistently held up current law. 

Even if they do consider the case, Winkler said he expects the justices would side with the circuit courts, considering that 18 to 21-year-olds have an especially higher than average rates of suicide, criminal behavior and drug and alcohol abuse.

"On the other hand, we allow 18-year-olds to bear arms in defense of the nation," he said. "Perhaps they should be allowed to defend themselves."
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Old 08-08-2013, 12:33 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by frazod View Post
Yep. I remember it like it was yesterday. I was playing with my friends and a big black NRA truck pulled up, and some creepy guy handed us all assault rifles and 500 rounds then drove away. We immediately knocked over a liquor store and then shot up a school bus for kicks. What a day.

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Old 08-08-2013, 12:38 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by frazod View Post
Yeah, to hell with her, right? I probably shouldn't even ever talk to her again.

Well, ask yourself this, then, Einstein. Your daughter (who is apparently so much more important than my Goddaughter) is attacked by a rapist. Would you rather she was able to defend herself, or get raped and ****ing murdered because you're scared of guns?
, I'm not saying that at all. I'm also not scared of guns. However, we're talking about the maturity level of teens (in particular parenting). I'm sorry but that's not comparable.


My point is and always has been to show that the child is responsible enough and then go through the parents like they can now. Giving every 18 year old the ability to purchase a handgun unilaterally is not good.

**** at 18 I had my own rifle, lived on my own for 2 previous years, had a job, owned my own car, paid my own bills and still wasn't responsible enough to own a handgun. Hell almost got in trouble owning the rifle.
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Old 08-08-2013, 12:59 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by J Diddy View Post
You're confounding the issue. We were talking about the concept of showing responsibility first then privilege vs. privilege first in hopes that one would miraculously show responsibility with it.
A Privilege and constitutional rights are not the same thing. Well until the person digs up your violets. Ya know doing a quick spell check is usually a good idea unless you are not paying attention.
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Old 08-08-2013, 01:08 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by dirk digler View Post
I guess I am a failure as a parent then. My 15 yr old daughter wasn't close to being mature. If they are mature at 15 to own a handgun then they are mature enough to have sex.
Or you're not at all a failure but you are completely underestimating your daughter.
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Old 08-08-2013, 01:10 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by mr. tegu View Post


I have come to not expect such ridiculous hyperbole from you.
In this case I don't think it's hyperbole at all. It's a very serious problem with our society that we continue to dumb down each generation in terms of maturity.
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Old 08-08-2013, 01:15 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by J Diddy View Post
You're comparing apples to oranges. Basing how children in this society behave compared to lets say Saudi Arabian children behave isn't even comparable to the level you attribute. There are way way way too many extraneous factors involved for everything to be boiled down to simply "they act that way because they are treated differently." We are talking different cultures, political systems, freedoms, opportunities, etc. Sure a case can be made that might have something to do with it, however, your assertion that is the sole case simply can't be proven and I would argue is highly unlikely.
I don't think I'm comparing apples to oranges at all. What "extraneous factors" are you referring to? There are two factors : genetics and environment. Period. It would be a helluva stretch to say American children are genetically predisposed to immaturity so let's stick with environment. My problem is not just with how individuals treat young adults but with how our society continues to shift in every imaginable way toward one that engenders a more drawn out immature youth. When I say "treated like toddlers" I am talking about the entire environment our society presents to them. So I'm not sure what other factors I'm missing here?
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Old 08-08-2013, 01:20 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
In this case I don't think it's hyperbole at all. It's a very serious problem with our society that we continue to dumb down each generation in terms of maturity.
I call it hyperbole because your comment is suggesting that a parent can do everything "right" but if their kid isn't mature enough to own a gun then those parents are complete failures, as if owning a gun is the ultimate goal of parenting and is a must for someone to be called mature. For many it can be part of it and an important goal, but I would doubt that is the ultimate goal for most.

Owning a gun is more than just maturity. There has to be an interest in having one and a desire to learn to use it. If a 15 year old or anyone doesn't have that it doesn't mean they aren't mature, just that they aren't interested.
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Old 08-08-2013, 01:25 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by mr. tegu View Post
I call it hyperbole because your comment is suggesting that a parent can do everything "right" but if their kid isn't mature enough to own a gun then those parents are complete failures, as if owning a gun is the ultimate goal of parenting and is a must for someone to be called mature. For many it can be part of it and an important goal, but I would doubt that is the ultimate goal for most.

Owning a gun is more than just maturity. There has to be an interest in having one and a desire to learn to use it. If a 15 year old or anyone doesn't have that it doesn't mean they aren't mature, just that they aren't interested.
You misunderstood my statement.
I am not saying they HAVE TO own a gun to be mature. That's just silly. I said if they aren't MATURE ENOUGH to be able to than you have failed at parenting. I could care less about teens having guns.. my problem is with treating them like children such that people say "no no little johnny isn't mature enough for [insert whatever bullshit - guns, driving, sex, etc] .. he's only 17!"
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Old 08-08-2013, 01:38 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
You misunderstood my statement.
I am not saying they HAVE TO own a gun to be mature. That's just silly. I said if they aren't MATURE ENOUGH to be able to than you have failed at parenting. I could care less about teens having guns.. my problem is with treating them like children such that people say "no no little johnny isn't mature enough for [insert whatever bullshit - guns, driving, sex, etc] .. he's only 17!"
Considering the fact that research has been showing brains don't fully develop and mature until the mid 20s I don't think it is unreasonable to say a 15 year old is not mature enough for something and I don't think it is a sign of bad parenting.

As with anything, whether a certain physical capacity or mental capacity should be met, age is not exactly a good indicator of preparedness.
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Old 08-08-2013, 01:41 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by mr. tegu View Post
Considering the fact that research has been showing brains don't fully develop and mature until the mid 20s I don't think it is unreasonable to say a 15 year old is not mature enough for something and I don't think it is a sign of bad parenting.

As with anything, whether a certain physical capacity or mental capacity should be met, age is not exactly a good indicator of preparedness.
So, you're saying people shouldn't be allowed to vote/go to war/drink until they are 30?
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Old 08-08-2013, 01:45 PM   #101
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So, you're saying people shouldn't be allowed to vote/go to war/drink until they are 30?
Is that what I said? I didn't even say teenagers shouldn't be allowed to own guns.
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Old 08-08-2013, 01:57 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by mr. tegu View Post
Considering the fact that research has been showing brains don't fully develop and mature until the mid 20s I don't think it is unreasonable to say a 15 year old is not mature enough for something and I don't think it is a sign of bad parenting.

As with anything, whether a certain physical capacity or mental capacity should be met, age is not exactly a good indicator of preparedness.
You're confusing when the brain stops maturing with when they should be "mature enough." I have no doubt that most 70 year olds are more mature than 30 year olds but that doesn't mean that a 30 year old should be "mature enough."
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Old 08-08-2013, 01:57 PM   #103
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I don't think I'm comparing apples to oranges at all. What "extraneous factors" are you referring to? There are two factors : genetics and environment. Period. It would be a helluva stretch to say American children are genetically predisposed to immaturity so let's stick with environment. My problem is not just with how individuals treat young adults but with how our society continues to shift in every imaginable way toward one that engenders a more drawn out immature youth. When I say "treated like toddlers" I am talking about the entire environment our society presents to them. So I'm not sure what other factors I'm missing here?
There's a hell of a lot of other factors here besides they give them more responsibility. There's a religious climate, a political climate, role of technology, and their role in the community.

You are talking about comparing collectivist cultures with individualist cultures. It's apples and oranges.
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Old 08-08-2013, 01:58 PM   #104
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That may be fine on an individual level but that isn't AT ALL how the real world works on a societal level. You can't go around coddling young adults and treating them like toddlers then expect them to miraculously "show the responsibility."

The more we lower our standards and expectations the more they will live down to them.

This is not ****ing rocket surgery. Go to damn near ANY other country in the world and watch how they treat young adults like ADULTS and notice the vast difference in maturity.
Sounds like you do not like the American version of freedom.

American freedom, Get off my lawn.
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Old 08-08-2013, 02:07 PM   #105
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You're confusing when the brain stops maturing with when they should be "mature enough." I have no doubt that most 70 year olds are more mature than 30 year olds but that doesn't mean that a 30 year old should be "mature enough."
I am not confusing anything. It is just silly to say something so black and white about 15 year olds and their parents given the various rates at which children develop as well as the subjective nature of what maturity is. I don't disagree with your basic premise that many kids are overprotected and thus their development is held back though.
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