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Old 08-11-2013, 03:24 PM  
Bambi Bambi is offline
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Religious weirdos have to be rescued at sea

And Obama is still the bad guy, lol

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Old 08-14-2013, 10:20 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco View Post
Mustard seed faith must have seemed small to Jesus. For a flawed child like me, mustard seed faith is larger than the mountains I could move.
Jesus never said that of course, Matthew did, or whomever(s) wrote that "book". And mustard seed was about as small an object as the backwards, ignorant people of the time could see.
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High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 08-14-2013, 10:22 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
It's called "Special Pleading" and its a logical fallacy.
So what happened before the big bang? Is that a special pleading as well?
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Old 08-14-2013, 10:27 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
It's called "Special Pleading" and its a logical fallacy.
I don't try to fit hugely illogical ideas into tiny logical boxes.
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Old 08-14-2013, 10:28 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
Jesus never said that of course, Matthew did, or whomever(s) wrote that "book". And mustard seed was about as small an object as the backwards, ignorant people of the time could see.
Isn't it your position that Jesus never said anything at all?
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Old 08-14-2013, 10:33 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
LOL... actually, that's exactly what it means... predestination disqualifies free will...
You keep mentioning predestination, but that is a straw man argument as I never said one word about predestination. That is a misrepresentation of my argument, and one of the most basic logical errors possible. (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman)

Omniscience is not the same thing as predestination.. see :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination

specifically:

Quote:
Predestination, in theology, is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God. John Calvin interpreted biblical predestination to mean that God willed eternal damnation for some people and salvation for others.[1] Explanations of predestination often seek to address the so-called "paradox of free will", whereby God's omniscience seems incompatible with human free will.
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The argument from free will (also called the paradox of free will, or theological fatalism) contends that omniscience and free will are incompatible, and that any conception of God that incorporates both properties is therefore inherently contradictory.[1][2][3] The argument may focus on the incoherence of people having free will, or else God himself having free will. These arguments are deeply concerned with the implications of predestination, and often seem to echo the standard argument against free will.
In other words, people can make that argument.....but it is absolutely NOT a fact, as you keep insisting. It is very much contested. YOU are the one insisting it is a fact, and thus the burden of proof lies with you.



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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
If you know what move I'm making next, then it's not possible that I have free will. How could you say that both possibilities exist simultaneously? That I'm free to choose 2 different choices, and that you know the choice which will be chosen? LOL...
Again, you can put 100 LOL's but you keep making the same foolish errors in thought process. If I know that my wife , by not taking care of her car will lessen the lifespan of it...and lower the value.....isn't it still HER free will that does these things? If you know there are going to be negative consequences to your friend's actions, and you warn them of the consequences......and tell them there will be a negative outcome...and they do it anyway...(like if they kill themselves, and you warned them their family would be devastated) how did YOU take away their free will?

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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Allow it to happen?
Yes , in a way....If you do not intervene....in a sense you allow someone to do a negative action. Imagine if you are a manager and your employee has a penchant for being late....you tell them if they are late tomorrow, they will probably get fired by the boss....but you like and care for that person....if you call them to wake them up, and make sure they show up on time...that would be an intervention. If you cant figure out the implications of this, and how it applies to our conversation, then there really isn't much I can do to help you.

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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
You didn't google "The argument of free will" did you? I urge that you actually look this up, and become educated for yourself. This is certainly not my idea. Get over your ignorance, and investigate the quoted term. Come back and tell me how many educated people agree with what you're saying in this post.
1)https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
2)https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

Look clearly I can see this isn't "your idea". You don't seem to be able to think for yourself, you keep insisting that I look up and prove YOUR argument for you. How bout I just prove you to be wrong instead:

here is a philosophical school of thought, more than 500 years old, stating the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you are stating:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molinism

And I quote:

Quote:
Molinism, named after 16th Century Jesuit theologian Luis de Molina, is a religious doctrine which attempts to reconcile the providence of God with human free will. William Lane Craig and Alvin Plantinga are some of its best known advocates today, though other important Molinists include Alfred Freddoso and Thomas Flint. In basic terms, Molinists hold that in addition to knowing everything that does or will happen, God also knows what His creatures would freely choose if placed in any circumstance..
So your false concept that you have the ONLY answers , much like bible thumping extremists on the other end, is nothing more than bombastic hot air.

Clearly there are many schools of thought on this subject and your feeble attempts to patronize me and insult me are just red herrings to try to avert the audience to your total and utter ignorance of this subject.


QED
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Old 08-14-2013, 10:40 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco View Post
That's just a gibberish way of avoiding an answer that destroys your question, Fish.
Yeah, it's hard to compete with



But there is definitely an argument to be made about a timeless deity being a personal deity...

"A timeless and immutable God could not be personal, because he could not create or respond, perceive or act, think, remember, or do any of the other things persons do which require time. Thus, within the framework of a theology of a personal God, the doctrines of divine timelessness and immutability cannot be retained,"

Several philosophers have drawn attention to the apparent incoherence bound up in the notion of a timeless agent, and hence the untenable nature of divine timeless action.

Nelson Pike has explained the problem thus:
"The point seems to be that if God were to create or produce an object having position in time, God's creative activity would then have to have occurred at some specific time. The claim that God timelessly produced a temporal object (such as the mountain) is absurd." (God and Timelessness, p. 105).

He continues:
"If we can assign a temporal location to what one produces, by the logic of "produces". . .we can assign relative temporal position to the productive activity itself. . . .if something is produced, it begins to exist. To produce something is to effect its beginning. Further. . .if something begins to exist it has position in time. [So] a timeless individual could not produce, create, or bring about an object. . .or state of affairs." (God and Timelessness, pp. 106, 107, 110).

Similarly, Richard Swinburne has argued:
"so many other things which the theist wishes to say about God--that he brings about this or that, forgives, punishes, or warns--are things which are true of a man at this or that time or at all times. If we say that P brings about x, we can always sensibly ask when does he bring it about. If we say that P punishes Q, we can always sensibly ask when does he punish Q? If P really does "bring about" or "forgive" in anything like the normal senses of the words, there must be answers to these questions even if nobody knows what they are. . . .So, superficially, the supposition that God could bring things about, forgive, punish, warn, etc. etc. without doing these things at times before or after other times . . .seems incoherent." (Coherence of Theism, p. 221)

Thus, we have an argument against the possibility of timeless action which runs something like this:
(1) A timeless being = df. a being who lacks all temporal location and extension.
(2) Given any being S, if S brings it about that X, S brings it about that X at a certain time.
(3) Given any being S, if S brings it about that X at a certain time, then S has temporal location.
(4) Therefore, a timeless being cannot bring it about that X.

Since, a necessary condition for bringing things about is temporal location, a timeless God would seem to not be able to create the world (i.e., bring about X, where X = the world), nor would such a being be able to act within the world. Timelessness seems incompatible with divine action, and hence the doctrines of creation and providence.
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Old 08-14-2013, 10:55 AM   #82
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You think you understand all the rules? That seems unjustifiably arrogant to me.
No, I didn't claim that at all. I fully admit to a very very limited understanding. I'm just pointing out that this topic has been debated for thousands of years and there are very real contradictions with the idea of a timeless and personal deity, and there is a ton of information regarding it. Simply saying God could be outside time isn't really an answer, because of the problems it presents, that I have previously mentioned.
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Old 08-14-2013, 11:04 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
No, I didn't claim that at all. I fully admit to a very very limited understanding. I'm just pointing out that this topic has been debated for thousands of years and there are very real contradictions with the idea of a timeless and personal deity, and there is a ton of information regarding it. Simply saying God could be outside time isn't really an answer, because of the problems it presents, that I have previously mentioned.
Then you have a free will decision to make: You can agree with me or you can continue the debate for a couple thousand years more. I wonder what choice God has already seen you make in the future?
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Old 08-14-2013, 11:06 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
No, I didn't claim that at all. I fully admit to a very very limited understanding. I'm just pointing out that this topic has been debated for thousands of years and there are very real contradictions with the idea of a timeless and personal deity, and there is a ton of information regarding it. Simply saying God could be outside time isn't really an answer, because of the problems it presents, that I have previously mentioned.
God does not work with could be, he created time for us. Surely you can see everything that lives dies in the physical form here, yes?
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Old 08-14-2013, 11:12 AM   #85
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Logic is a useful tool except when it is applied to illogical problems. A hammer is a useful tool, but not all problems are nails.
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Old 08-14-2013, 11:23 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
No, I didn't claim that at all. I fully admit to a very very limited understanding. I'm just pointing out that this topic has been debated for thousands of years and there are very real contradictions with the idea of a timeless and personal deity, and there is a ton of information regarding it. Simply saying God could be outside time isn't really an answer, because of the problems it presents, that I have previously mentioned.
Saying God could be outside of time doesn't present problems. It presents a mystery for those of us confined and conditioned to understand space and time from our perspective.

I didn't find the stuff you previously mentioned very convincing.
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Old 08-14-2013, 11:32 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco View Post
Logic is a useful tool except when it is applied to illogical problems. A hammer is a useful tool, but not all problems are nails.
I don't find it useful to believe illogical ideas.
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Old 08-14-2013, 11:33 AM   #88
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I don't find it useful to believe illogical ideas.
Then how do you reconcile what happened before the big bang? Or string theory, or black holes...
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Old 08-14-2013, 11:37 AM   #89
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Everybody dance now:


The best proof of the existence of a benevolent God is naked dancing women.
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Old 08-14-2013, 11:42 AM   #90
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Then how do you reconcile what happened before the big bang? Or string theory, or black holes...
I don't know what happened before the big bang. That doesn't make it illogical though. A lack of knowledge is different than being illogical.
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