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Old 08-12-2013, 09:26 AM  
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is online now
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Religious people are less intelligent than atheists, study finds

Religious people are less intelligent than atheists, study finds

Rob Waugh 3 hours ago Yahoo! News

Religious people are less intelligent than non-believers, according to a new review of 63 scientific studies stretching back over decades.

A team led by Miron Zuckerman of the University of Rochester found “a reliable negative relation between intelligence and religiosity” in 53 out of 63 studies

Even in extreme old age, intelligent people are less likely to believe, the researchers found - and the reasons why people with high IQs shun religion may not be as simple as previously thought.

Previous studies have tended to assume that intelligent people simply “know better”, the researchers write - but the reasons may be more complex.

For instance, intelligent people are more likely to be married, and more likely to be successful in life - and this may mean they “need” religion less.

The studies used in Zuckerman's paper included a life-long analysis of the beliefs of a group of 1,500 gifted children - those with IQs over 135 - in a study which began in 1921 and continues today.

Even at 75 to 91 years of age, the children from Lewis Terman’s study scored lower for religiosity than the general population - contrary to the widely held belief that people turn to God as they age. The researchers noted that data was lacking about religious attitudes in old age and say, “Additional research is needed to resolve this issue.”

As early as 1958, Michael Argyle concluded, “Although intelligent children grasp religious concepts earlier, they are also the first to doubt the truth of religion, and intelligent students are much less likely to accept orthodox beliefs, and rather less likely to have pro-religious attitudes.”

A 1916 study quoted in Zuckerman’s paper (Leuba) found that, “58% of randomly selected scientists in the United States expressed disbelief in, or doubt regarding the existence of God; this proportion rose to nearly 70% for the most eminent scientists.”

The paper, published in the academic journal Personality and Social Psychology Review, said “Most extant explanations (of a negative relation) share one central theme—the premise that religious beliefs are irrational, not anchored in science, not testable and, therefore, unappealing to intelligent people who “know better.”

The answer may, however, be more complex. Intelligent people may simply be able to provide themselves with the psychological benefits offered by religion - such as “self-regulation and self-enhancement”, because they are more likely to be successful, and have stable lives.

“Intelligent people typically spend more time in school—a form of self-regulation that may yield long-term benefits,” the researchers write. “More intelligent people get higher level jobs (and better employment (and higher salary) may lead to higher self-esteem, and encourage personal control beliefs.”

“Last, more intelligent people are more likely to get and stay married (greater attachment), though for intelligent people, that too comes later in life. We therefore suggest that as intelligent people move from young adulthood to adulthood and then to middle age, the benefits of intelligence may continue to accrue.”

The researchers suggest that further research on the “function” of religion may reveal more.

“People possessing the functions that religion provides are likely to adopt atheism, people lacking these very functions (e.g., the poor, the helpless) are likely to adopt theism,” the researchers wrote.
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Old 08-23-2013, 09:44 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by BigChiefTablet View Post
I provided you three links that verify what I said. It doesn't break the laws of physics if you account for dark matter. Pinwheel galaxies wouldn't be possible without dark matter or whatever else it is that is causing the extra gravity in the universe that we can't explain. I really don't know how many times or ways I can relate that to you. Is English a second language for you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigChiefTablet View Post
They only break the laws of physics if you don't account for dark matter. Seeing as how you believe in dark matter, I don't see how this is a problem for you.
Here's where you're wrong. You're saying the laws of physics are broken unless you account for dark matter. But that's just not true at all. The laws of physics don't require dark matter in order to be true. The laws of physics existed long before dark matter was ever even thought of, and the laws of physics still haven't changed since the discovery of dark matter. Science didn't adjust the laws of physics to account for dark matter in any sense. Science discovered extra mass in the universe that couldn't be explained by what mass we could see. And it was unknown for a long long time as to what that mass could be.

Only when we had the technology to examine light from galaxies billions of years old, were we able to to actually measure the mass of distant galaxies in the universe and how they interacted with each other. We used the existing laws of physics that we knew to be true to examine the universe, and kept seeing spots in the universe where we detected mass using known reliable methods, but there was no visible mass present. They didn't revise the laws of physics to account for this matter that they detected. They kept investigating until they were confident enough to say what it was. Dark matter.

They determined that dark matter exists, because the laws of physics show that there is clearly mass present that we can't directly see, without changing the laws to make that true. They are so confident that the mass they detected exists and we can measure it, that they said "NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter". And that hasn't been challenged. The laws of physics didn't change throughout that process.

And gravitational effects aren't the only method of detecting dark matter. There is also the use of measuring gamma ray output, and matching that with the known mass in the area. Which is completely independent of gravitational techniques. At the following link, it explains how they detect dark matter without gravitational means. Read up: http://www.space.com/17133-dark-matt...amma-rays.html

Also of note... You referenced the links you posted, that were in post #367(Link), which is your source for the claim that pinwheel galaxies would fly apart. But I think it should be pointed out that the person that made that claim is Vera Rubin. Who is.. get this... considered the "Discoverer of Dark Matter". The entire idea is dependent on dark matter existing. How hilarious is that? She's faulting dark matter not because of its existence(because that's what she's known for), but because it doesn't match the Newtonian explanation.

What you're using as source, is actually her explanation for her discovery of dark matter. Which has turned out to be wrong, despite her actual real evidence that dark matter exists. She discovered dark matter, but was simply wrong in explaining how it mixed with the rest of the universe. Because she didn't believe in Newtonian physics as it related to dark matter. Her claim is the source for saying these galaxies should not exist. Which has been proven false. That's why she can claim that it breaks the laws of physics, because she doesn't believe in the existing laws of physics. Rubins observations required the existence of dark matter, which ironically goes against your entire premise. She was just wrong about the relationship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigChiefTablet View Post
That wasn't enough for you? Jesus, I got a page full on google.
Or here http://www.cosmotography.com/images/..._galaxies.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by from above link
As Rubin's observations discovered, without dark matter, galaxies would fly apart as they rotate. Dark matter is the glue that holds the Universe together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Truth about Rubin
Currently, the theory of dark matter is the most popular candidate for explaining the galaxy rotation problem. The alternative theory of MOND (Modified Newtonian Dynamics) has little support in the community. Rubin, however, prefers the MOND approach, stating "If I could have my pick, I would like to learn that Newton's laws must be modified in order to correctly describe gravitational interactions at large distances. That's more appealing than a universe filled with a new kind of sub-nuclear particle."
Her explanation for dark matter, which she completely acknowledged existed and was credited for discovering mind you, was that the laws of physics needed to be changed to account for it. But the MOND approach is clearly not accepted. The laws of physics were not changed, but the existence of dark matter was accepted.

Do you have another source for claiming that pinwheel galaxies should not be possible? Preferably one that accepts known accepted Newtonian physics?
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Old 08-23-2013, 09:48 PM   #407
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An atheist was seated next to a little girl on an airplane and he turned
to her and said, "Do you want to talk? Flights go quicker if you strike
up a conversation with your fellow passenger."

The little girl, who had just started to read her book, replied to the total
stranger, "What would you want to talk about?"

"Oh, I don't know," said the atheist. "How about why there is no God,
or no Heaven or Hell, or no life after death?" as he smiled smugly.

"Okay," she said. "Those could be interesting topics but let me ask
you a question first. A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat the same
stuff - grass. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns
out a flat patty, but a horse produces clumps. Why do you suppose that is?"

The atheist, visibly surprised by the little girl's intelligence,
thinks about it and says, "Hmmm, I have no idea." To which
the little girl replies, "Do you really feel qualified to discuss
God, Heaven and Hell, or life after death, when you don't know shit?"
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Old 08-23-2013, 10:09 PM   #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KS Smitty View Post
An atheist was seated next to a little girl on an airplane and he turned
to her and said, "Do you want to talk? Flights go quicker if you strike
up a conversation with your fellow passenger."

The little girl, who had just started to read her book, replied to the total
stranger, "What would you want to talk about?"

"Oh, I don't know," said the atheist. "How about why there is no God,
or no Heaven or Hell, or no life after death?" as he smiled smugly.

"Okay," she said. "Those could be interesting topics but let me ask
you a question first. A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat the same
stuff - grass. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns
out a flat patty, but a horse produces clumps. Why do you suppose that is?"

The atheist, visibly surprised by the little girl's intelligence,
thinks about it and says, "Hmmm, I have no idea." To which
the little girl replies, "Do you really feel qualified to discuss
God, Heaven and Hell, or life after death, when you don't know shit?"
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Old 08-24-2013, 06:33 AM   #409
BigChiefTablet BigChiefTablet is offline
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Here's where you're wrong. You're saying the laws of physics are broken unless you account for dark matter. But that's just not true at all. The laws of physics don't require dark matter in order to be true. The laws of physics existed long before dark matter was ever even thought of, and the laws of physics still haven't changed since the discovery of dark matter. Science didn't adjust the laws of physics to account for dark matter in any sense. Science discovered extra mass in the universe that couldn't be explained by what mass we could see. And it was unknown for a long long time as to what that mass could be.

Only when we had the technology to examine light from galaxies billions of years old, were we able to to actually measure the mass of distant galaxies in the universe and how they interacted with each other. We used the existing laws of physics that we knew to be true to examine the universe, and kept seeing spots in the universe where we detected mass using known reliable methods, but there was no visible mass present. They didn't revise the laws of physics to account for this matter that they detected. They kept investigating until they were confident enough to say what it was. Dark matter.

They determined that dark matter exists, because the laws of physics show that there is clearly mass present that we can't directly see, without changing the laws to make that true. They are so confident that the mass they detected exists and we can measure it, that they said "NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter". And that hasn't been challenged. The laws of physics didn't change throughout that process.

And gravitational effects aren't the only method of detecting dark matter. There is also the use of measuring gamma ray output, and matching that with the known mass in the area. Which is completely independent of gravitational techniques. At the following link, it explains how they detect dark matter without gravitational means. Read up: http://www.space.com/17133-dark-matt...amma-rays.html

Also of note... You referenced the links you posted, that were in post #367(Link), which is your source for the claim that pinwheel galaxies would fly apart. But I think it should be pointed out that the person that made that claim is Vera Rubin. Who is.. get this... considered the "Discoverer of Dark Matter". The entire idea is dependent on dark matter existing. How hilarious is that? She's faulting dark matter not because of its existence(because that's what she's known for), but because it doesn't match the Newtonian explanation.

What you're using as source, is actually her explanation for her discovery of dark matter. Which has turned out to be wrong, despite her actual real evidence that dark matter exists. She discovered dark matter, but was simply wrong in explaining how it mixed with the rest of the universe. Because she didn't believe in Newtonian physics as it related to dark matter. Her claim is the source for saying these galaxies should not exist. Which has been proven false. That's why she can claim that it breaks the laws of physics, because she doesn't believe in the existing laws of physics. Rubins observations required the existence of dark matter, which ironically goes against your entire premise. She was just wrong about the relationship.







Her explanation for dark matter, which she completely acknowledged existed and was credited for discovering mind you, was that the laws of physics needed to be changed to account for it. But the MOND approach is clearly not accepted. The laws of physics were not changed, but the existence of dark matter was accepted.

Do you have another source for claiming that pinwheel galaxies should not be possible? Preferably one that accepts known accepted Newtonian physics?
You are making this harder than it is. A lot of what you are saying in this post is what I have been saying all along. Basically, scientists looked at the amount of matter in the universe and looked at the laws of physics and said, something doesn't quite add up. If we only account for the matter we can see, the universe shouldn't be doing things like holding these galaxies together. There should be more mass for the universe to be doing what it's doing. Some scientists said, we must not understand the laws of physics correctly, others said, there must be more mass than we can see. So the theory of dark matter started floating around. Other theories also arose.

At some point, they built physics-based computer models, and sure enough, when they only accounted for matter they could see, galaxies flew apart. But they had this theory of dark matter, so they added gravity to the model. It worked.

These days, they can detect and measure gravitational effects that can't be explained by anything seen. They still cannot directly measure dark matter.

This is what I've been saying all along. I don't know why you can't comprehend it and keep trying to tell me that I said that the laws of of physics are broken, because I did not say that. What I said was, if there is not something like dark matter, spiral galaxies would be breaking the laws of physics. Since there is something like dark matter, they are not breaking any laws of physics.\

Of course I've said all this over and over and over, and you just keep coming back and arguing with me.

Last edited by BigChiefTablet; 08-24-2013 at 06:56 AM..
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Old 08-25-2013, 09:57 PM   #410
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OK. I have an apology to make. BigChiefTablet, you were pretty much correct in your claim. I apologize for being so close minded to your explanation. I have been completely wrong in this case with regards to spiral galaxies and I apologize for my approach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astrophysicist friend
Hey Nathan,

I really appreciate your promotion of science discussions with Chiefs fans!

To your question: the exact nature of DM remains a mystery for scientists, but we are probably getting close to pinpointing it (I'd guess in the next decade; and the best bet is some weakly-interacting subatomic particle like neutrinos). But, beyond Vera Rubin's initial discovery of the flat rotation curves of spiral galaxies (and earlier Fritz Zwicky of CalTech coined the term dark matter because of galaxy motions in clusters), there is a large body of very strong supporting evidence for DM, in particular gravitational lensing.

Share this link for a fun/scientific 4min video on possibly the best evidence so far, the Bullet Cluster



Note, your friend is correct that w/out the extra mass (gravity) from DM around galaxies, that pinwheel (spiral) galaxies rotate to fast and would spin apart. But it's the DM that's causing them to spin so fast.
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Old 08-25-2013, 10:04 PM   #411
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
OK. I have an apology to make. BigChiefTablet, you were pretty much correct in your claim. I apologize for being so close minded to your explanation. I have been completely wrong in this case with regards to spiral galaxies and I apologize for my approach.
This is an excellent example of the difference between scientists and religious people.

Kudos to Fish for apologizing and admitting his error.
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Old 08-25-2013, 11:29 PM   #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KS Smitty View Post
An atheist was seated next to a little girl on an airplane and he turned
to her and said, "Do you want to talk? Flights go quicker if you strike
up a conversation with your fellow passenger."

The little girl, who had just started to read her book, replied to the total
stranger, "What would you want to talk about?"

"Oh, I don't know," said the atheist. "How about why there is no God,
or no Heaven or Hell, or no life after death?" as he smiled smugly.

"Okay," she said. "Those could be interesting topics but let me ask
you a question first. A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat the same
stuff - grass. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns
out a flat patty, but a horse produces clumps. Why do you suppose that is?"

The atheist, visibly surprised by the little girl's intelligence,
thinks about it and says, "Hmmm, I have no idea." To which
the little girl replies, "Do you really feel qualified to discuss
God, Heaven and Hell, or life after death, when you don't know shit?"
I'm pretty sure it's because of their digestive tracts.
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Old 08-26-2013, 01:46 PM   #413
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
This is an excellent example of the difference between scientists and religious people.

Kudos to Fish for apologizing and admitting his error.
Yes, kudos to Fish for admitting his error. I really mean that. But the first part of your post ... Come on man.

After 5 or 6 pages of atheists calling me an idiot while I presented a pretty reasonable and accurate layman's understanding of scientific principles, Fish gets the nod as being the guy doing the right thing and creationists, which I am one, get the finger?
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Old 08-26-2013, 01:52 PM   #414
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
This is an excellent example of the difference between scientists and religious people.

Kudos to Fish for apologizing and admitting his error.
I would think it has more to do with integrity than science vs. religion and integrity, or lack of, isn’t exclusive to one or the other.
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Old 08-26-2013, 03:32 PM   #415
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Originally Posted by BigChiefTablet View Post
Yes, kudos to Fish for admitting his error. I really mean that. But the first part of your post ... Come on man.

After 5 or 6 pages of atheists calling me an idiot while I presented a pretty reasonable and accurate layman's understanding of scientific principles, Fish gets the nod as being the guy doing the right thing and creationists, which I am one, get the finger?

exactly


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Old 08-27-2013, 08:59 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
This is an excellent example of the difference between scientists and religious people.

Kudos to Fish for apologizing and admitting his error.
...no, this is an example of God being fixed, and science being a moving target.
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Old 08-27-2013, 02:51 PM   #417
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...no, this is an example of God being fixed, and science being a moving target.
Same as our speech patterns. GOD is Didactic, we practice the dialectic. GOD says you will surely die if you eat from this tree, Satan says you won't really die..you can eat this.
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Old 08-28-2013, 01:48 PM   #418
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Old 08-28-2013, 01:50 PM   #419
KILLER_CLOWN KILLER_CLOWN is offline
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Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla View Post
The religious folks are here yelling at our students today. As I walked by, I learned that all women are going to hell. I thought that was interesting.
Well it's good thing that one person speaks for GOD.
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KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.
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Old 08-28-2013, 01:50 PM   #420
Pitt Gorilla Pitt Gorilla is offline
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Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN View Post
Well it's good thing that one person speaks for GOD.
?
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Kotter: "You are lucky I'm truly not the vindictive or psycho type...I'd be careful from now on, and I'd just back the hell off if I were you....otherwise, the Mizzou "extension office" life might get exciting"

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Pitt Gorilla is too fat/Omaha.Pitt Gorilla is too fat/Omaha.Pitt Gorilla is too fat/Omaha.Pitt Gorilla is too fat/Omaha.Pitt Gorilla is too fat/Omaha.Pitt Gorilla is too fat/Omaha.Pitt Gorilla is too fat/Omaha.Pitt Gorilla is too fat/Omaha.Pitt Gorilla is too fat/Omaha.Pitt Gorilla is too fat/Omaha.Pitt Gorilla is too fat/Omaha.
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