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Old 08-19-2013, 09:50 PM  
HonestChieffan HonestChieffan is offline
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Kansas School Celebrates Islam. How 'bout that?

Lefty religion haters like many here will go nuts over Jesus being mentioned in a school. And they will defend this bullshit.

Congrats Kansas.





Parents at a Wichita, Kan. elementary school were shocked to discover a giant wall display inside the building promoting the five pillars of Islam.

The large exhibit was erected before the start of the school year as part of a religion component being taught at Minneha Core Knowledge Magnet School, a school district spokesperson told Fox News.

“The bulletin board that originally caused the concern does represent the 5 Pillars of Islam — in a historical context of their studies,” the spokesperson said.

The district said the photograph of the bulletin board is misleading because it is “without context.”

“There is also a painting of the Last Supper hanging in the school as part of the study of art and the Renaissance period,” the spokesperson said. “A photo take of a bulletin board without context is misleading, and some have taken it out of context without having all the information.”

Nevertheless, the school has removed the Islamic bulletin board until the subject matter is taught later this fall.

School officials said the study of Islam is part of their “Core Knowledge” magnet curriculum.
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:48 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
IF Islam(either it's history or founding tenets) was taught objectively the left would be in an absolute UPROAR about the class being an anti-Islam smear campaign.

To be clear here, I'm not some Christian zealot in any way shape or form. I am however an "accuracy" zealot.
Exactly.
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:50 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Holy shit man...How about the ****ing THREAD TITLE?
Lol.

You got him there.
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yeah i may be a retard but I'll be the one banging your girlfriend when you're out with your friends.
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:53 PM   #123
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Well, technically, the Roman Empire was established long before Constantine became a Christian. Romans persecuted the early Christians just as much as the persecuted the lands they conquered.
Exactly what I was going to post. Constantine converted to Christianity in the 300's which was long after the Roman empire went on it's expansionist tear. In fact, the Roman empire was already in decline phase (although it didn't really start to decline until several decades further along).

The Roman Catholic Church didn't exist at this point and only began to form with the First Council of Nicaea which occurred in 325 AD (also under Constantine). There's plenty of examples in history where you can say Christianity was used to further a militaristic purpose. The Roman Empire, however, is surely not one of them.

Of course you could make an argument around the Eastern Roman Empire with the Crusades but they didn't exactly stomp around taking over countries just because. They were more interested in holding as much as they could of what they already had. It was more of a response from a militaristic threat from the East (and North) and misplaced pride around restoring the empire. It's not like they went around attacking a bunch of peaceful people.

The Crusades were used more as a way to give the Byzantines some breathing room by spending others blood as they were being pressured both by the Arabs and Russian people groups (at least in my humble opinion).
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Old 08-20-2013, 03:33 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
IF Islam(either it's history or founding tenets) was taught objectively the left would be in an absolute UPROAR about the class being an anti-Islam smear campaign.

To be clear here, I'm not some Christian zealot in any way shape or form. I am however an "accuracy" zealot.
lol, fair enough. Apparently also a PM ignorer.....
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Old 08-20-2013, 05:07 PM   #125
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As with any topic, there is a lot of people spouting bullshit in this thread. Knowing teachers in a number of states across the country, I have never seen or heard of any public grade schools teaching Christianity or any religion ( other than Atheism, which yes, is a religion unto itself ). Have they shown art that displayed a Christian scene, ie. the Last Supper? Of course... did they explain what it was and its religious importance? Of course not - they spoke about technique, materials, timeframe, etc. Did world history mention Romans or what the various religions were that made up the first European settlers in America? Yes... but there was no discussion on their beliefs or practices.

That display sure as hell isn't 'art' and there is no historical reason to examine the belief system of Islam to grade school students to learn an overview of a culture, explain the Crusades, etc, etc. If they are so inclined, they can learn that stuff outside of a public school - say at a religious school of their choice, perhaps?
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Old 08-20-2013, 05:11 PM   #126
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I don't have a problem with religious studies as part of a social studies curriculum. Just keep that shit off the walls.
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Old 08-20-2013, 07:00 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Brock View Post
I don't have a problem with religious studies as part of a social studies curriculum. Just keep that shit off the walls.
I would rather they keep all of it out completely. With all of the different options and variations with each one it becomes an issue of who chooses the books and how they interpreted the text. It should be taught at home or in private schools where parents agree with the teachings~
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Old 08-20-2013, 07:08 PM   #128
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If theres equal time and space for all, i don't have a problem with this.

Despite many peoples legit misgivings with elements of islam, learning about other cultures, people, worlds... is what school is all about.
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Old 08-20-2013, 07:11 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
Lefty religion haters like many here will go nuts over Jesus being mentioned in a school. And they will defend this bullshit.

Congrats Kansas.





Parents at a Wichita, Kan. elementary school were shocked to discover a giant wall display inside the building promoting the five pillars of Islam.

The large exhibit was erected before the start of the school year as part of a religion component being taught at Minneha Core Knowledge Magnet School, a school district spokesperson told Fox News.

“The bulletin board that originally caused the concern does represent the 5 Pillars of Islam — in a historical context of their studies,” the spokesperson said.

The district said the photograph of the bulletin board is misleading because it is “without context.”

There is also a painting of the Last Supper hanging in the school as part of the study of art and the Renaissance period,” the spokesperson said. “A photo take of a bulletin board without context is misleading, and some have taken it out of context without having all the information.”

Nevertheless, the school has removed the Islamic bulletin board until the subject matter is taught later this fall.

School officials said the study of Islam is part of their “Core Knowledge” magnet curriculum.
Stop whining. "NOOOO Ours is the ONLY ONE!!! Whaaaa"

Either accept it for what it is, or join the secularists in encouraging religion out of schools entirely... other than that you're just a hypocrite and a crybaby.
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Old 08-20-2013, 07:16 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
IF Islam(either it's history or founding tenets) was taught objectively the left would be in an absolute UPROAR about the class being an anti-Islam smear campaign.

To be clear here, I'm not some Christian zealot in any way shape or form. I am however an "accuracy" zealot.
Yeah, I'm really not a fan. I do hold it in the lowest regard of all religions.

Even still, I think it's all pretty nutty, violent, and intolerant.
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Old 08-20-2013, 07:24 PM   #131
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So there's a fair bit of misrepresentation going on here. This is kind of my field - I've been studying exactly this for more than thirty years now, have a BA in Ancient and Medieval European History, am working on the Master's and have written numerous articles, so I know the field pretty well - so I wanted to explain some things here.

To start with, Islam was not created as a tool for conquest. To explain that, let me tell you what was going on in Arabia in the early 7th century, which is when Islam was born. Mohammed revealed the prophecies which became a Koran, and started preaching it in the streets of Mecca. The polytheistic Pagan Meccans didn't like this, and eventually Mohammed and his followers left to found Medina, a city founded on tenets of peace and nonviolence. Mecca picked a fight, and the short version is that Medina, now Islamic, fought back, and eventually took Mecca outright.

The Koran is intended as the final revelation of God, and a great deal of it deals with eschatology - that is, the end times - and with the nature of the afterlife. The Koran and the earliest adherents also promoted education, as they widely taught the people to read. Mohammed himself preached fighting as a defense, not an attack, and during his time as a commander, he didn't attempt to build an empire; he was defending his attacked city. He consolidated the two cities, established Islam as the main religion (of course, as back then religion and government were virtually the same), and then died.

A case could be made that the years following Mohammed's death included a large amount of violent expansionism. His successors (who fought like children over the power vacuum) waged plenty of wars, but in all likelihood, that level of warfare would have continued whether Islam was present or not - the Mideast has always been notorious for being wide and flat, leading to a lot of warfare and of territory changing hands, especially in ancient and medieval times. What happened was that a religion made for peace was then used as a justification for war, which is exactly what eventually happened with Christianity; the shorter amount of time that passed is mostly a function of the terrain and culture that was already in place.

Speaking of Christianity, I have to point out that Constantine adopted Christianity specifically to further his military purposes. In 312, his outnumbered forces were about to get crushed at Milvian Bridge (outside of Rome), when he had a dream about seeing a chi-ro (an early Christian symbol) in the sky. Taking that as a sign, he ordered the symbol to be emblazoned on the shields of his soldiers, and the next day they won big. Constantine adopted the religion for good.

The short version: Both religions were founded to promote peace. Both religions were then used to foment war. The same can be said of virtually every religion ever founded.
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Old 08-20-2013, 08:23 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aries Walker View Post
So there's a fair bit of misrepresentation going on here. This is kind of my field - I've been studying exactly this for more than thirty years now, have a BA in Ancient and Medieval European History, am working on the Master's and have written numerous articles, so I know the field pretty well - so I wanted to explain some things here.

To start with, Islam was not created as a tool for conquest. To explain that, let me tell you what was going on in Arabia in the early 7th century, which is when Islam was born. Mohammed revealed the prophecies which became a Koran, and started preaching it in the streets of Mecca. The polytheistic Pagan Meccans didn't like this, and eventually Mohammed and his followers left to found Medina, a city founded on tenets of peace and nonviolence. Mecca picked a fight, and the short version is that Medina, now Islamic, fought back, and eventually took Mecca outright.

The Koran is intended as the final revelation of God, and a great deal of it deals with eschatology - that is, the end times - and with the nature of the afterlife. The Koran and the earliest adherents also promoted education, as they widely taught the people to read. Mohammed himself preached fighting as a defense, not an attack, and during his time as a commander, he didn't attempt to build an empire; he was defending his attacked city. He consolidated the two cities, established Islam as the main religion (of course, as back then religion and government were virtually the same), and then died.

A case could be made that the years following Mohammed's death included a large amount of violent expansionism. His successors (who fought like children over the power vacuum) waged plenty of wars, but in all likelihood, that level of warfare would have continued whether Islam was present or not - the Mideast has always been notorious for being wide and flat, leading to a lot of warfare and of territory changing hands, especially in ancient and medieval times. What happened was that a religion made for peace was then used as a justification for war, which is exactly what eventually happened with Christianity; the shorter amount of time that passed is mostly a function of the terrain and culture that was already in place.

Speaking of Christianity, I have to point out that Constantine adopted Christianity specifically to further his military purposes. In 312, his outnumbered forces were about to get crushed at Milvian Bridge (outside of Rome), when he had a dream about seeing a chi-ro (an early Christian symbol) in the sky. Taking that as a sign, he ordered the symbol to be emblazoned on the shields of his soldiers, and the next day they won big. Constantine adopted the religion for good.

The short version: Both religions were founded to promote peace. Both religions were then used to foment war. The same can be said of virtually every religion ever founded.
And modern Islamists are wonderful folk, full of love and have a worldview of harmony and good.


Yea. Bullshit.
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Old 08-21-2013, 09:04 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Aries Walker View Post
So there's a fair bit of misrepresentation going on here. This is kind of my field - I've been studying exactly this for more than thirty years now, have a BA in Ancient and Medieval European History, am working on the Master's and have written numerous articles, so I know the field pretty well - so I wanted to explain some things here.

To start with, Islam was not created as a tool for conquest. To explain that, let me tell you what was going on in Arabia in the early 7th century, which is when Islam was born. Mohammed revealed the prophecies which became a Koran, and started preaching it in the streets of Mecca. The polytheistic Pagan Meccans didn't like this, and eventually Mohammed and his followers left to found Medina, a city founded on tenets of peace and nonviolence. Mecca picked a fight, and the short version is that Medina, now Islamic, fought back, and eventually took Mecca outright.

The Koran is intended as the final revelation of God, and a great deal of it deals with eschatology - that is, the end times - and with the nature of the afterlife. The Koran and the earliest adherents also promoted education, as they widely taught the people to read. Mohammed himself preached fighting as a defense, not an attack, and during his time as a commander, he didn't attempt to build an empire; he was defending his attacked city. He consolidated the two cities, established Islam as the main religion (of course, as back then religion and government were virtually the same), and then died.

A case could be made that the years following Mohammed's death included a large amount of violent expansionism. His successors (who fought like children over the power vacuum) waged plenty of wars, but in all likelihood, that level of warfare would have continued whether Islam was present or not - the Mideast has always been notorious for being wide and flat, leading to a lot of warfare and of territory changing hands, especially in ancient and medieval times. What happened was that a religion made for peace was then used as a justification for war, which is exactly what eventually happened with Christianity; the shorter amount of time that passed is mostly a function of the terrain and culture that was already in place.

Speaking of Christianity, I have to point out that Constantine adopted Christianity specifically to further his military purposes. In 312, his outnumbered forces were about to get crushed at Milvian Bridge (outside of Rome), when he had a dream about seeing a chi-ro (an early Christian symbol) in the sky. Taking that as a sign, he ordered the symbol to be emblazoned on the shields of his soldiers, and the next day they won big. Constantine adopted the religion for good.

The short version: Both religions were founded to promote peace. Both religions were then used to foment war. The same can be said of virtually every religion ever founded.
Thanks for that information and I admit that I didn't know much about Muhammad's rise to power. I acknowledge your vastly superior knowledge on this subject and defer to your expertise, but let me run this past you. According to the wikipedia page for Muhammad, the initial revelations that eventually became the Koran were indeed about peacefulness and clean living. Muhammad and his followers, motivated by persecution and the idea that he was targeted for assassination, did leave Mecca for Medina and worked to establish a peaceful community that was tolerant of different religions.

But having been forced to leave Mecca with little more than the clothes on their backs, Muhammad and his followers took to raiding Meccan caravans. Conveniently, revelations from this period justified these raids.

Quote:
Following the emigration, the Meccans seized the properties of the Muslim emigrants in Mecca.[106] Economically uprooted and with no available profession, the Muslim migrants turned to raiding Meccan caravans, initiating armed conflict with Mecca.[107][108][109] Muhammad delivered Quranic verses permitting the Muslims to fight the Meccans (see sura Al-Hajj, Quran 22:39–40).[110]
This led to several battles between the Meccans and Muhammad's Muslim forces. In these, the Muslims found much success...

Quote:
Muhammad and his followers saw in the victory a confirmation of their faith[17] as Muhammad ascribed the victory to the assistance of an invisible host of angels.[119] The Quranic verses of this period, unlike the Meccan ones, dealt with practical problems of government and issues like the distribution of spoils.[120][121]
... but also some failure.

Quote:
Questions accumulated as to the reasons for the loss, and Muhammad subsequently delivered Quranic verses 3:152 which indicated that their defeat was partly a punishment for disobedience and partly a test for steadfastness.[132]
So I guess my point is that the Koran was still being "written" even after Muhammad became a warlord and whether by convenient coincidence or divine providence, it presumably supports the warfare he practiced (including such practices as forced conversions of his conquests in contrast to his early ecumenical actions upon his arrival at Medina).

Does it really count as perverting a peaceful religion for war if the guy doing it is the guy who created the religion?
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Old 08-21-2013, 06:29 PM   #134
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There's a difference between being at war - which he was, there's no doubt about that - and being "fundamentally violent", "aggressively expansionist", "spread by warfare", "the religion of a violent, expansionist people", "founded upon brutality and conquest", or "intended to unify and guide a violent, expansionist group of people and justify their subjugation and slaughter of non-believers", all of which appeared just one page ago in this very thread. They were fighting to survive - in brutally unforgiving early medieval desert warfare - which is a big difference.

Religious texts, like any texts, are a product of the society in which they were written. The Theogeny (the ancient Greek origin story) was written as Greece was emerging from their Dark Ages and rediscovering philosophy and science, and therefore has a tone of explanation and how the universe works. The books of the New Testament were written from within a conquered kingdom, and therefore gave guidance about how to live in that society ("Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's", "Turn the other cheek", and so on). The Old Testament was written over a much longer time span, and so varied wildly, but many of the books were written in a situation similar to Mohammed's - a Mideastern desert country fighting for survival from persistent invading forces. As a result, you have stories such as Abraham rescuing Lot while slaying his captors, the Israelites destroying the walls of Jericho, and Moses killing a slaver. Each of these stories (and many others) provide guidance as to how to live, just as the Koran - founded in its own period of warfare - does.

But you are partially right in your last question; I should have said in my earlier post that "a religion for peace was then used as a justification for conquest", not "war". Mea culpa.
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Old 08-21-2013, 06:34 PM   #135
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"Promoting" Islam

Yeah. Nice article, HCF.
Posts: 55,933
SNR is obviously part of the inner Circle.SNR is obviously part of the inner Circle.SNR is obviously part of the inner Circle.SNR is obviously part of the inner Circle.SNR is obviously part of the inner Circle.SNR is obviously part of the inner Circle.SNR is obviously part of the inner Circle.SNR is obviously part of the inner Circle.SNR is obviously part of the inner Circle.SNR is obviously part of the inner Circle.SNR is obviously part of the inner Circle.
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