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Old 09-01-2013, 09:03 AM  
mlyonsd mlyonsd is offline
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Ok, so now what? Should/will Congress authorize force?

I do, if the case can be made it was actually the Syrian army that used the chemical weapons and not the rebels.

I'd institute a no fly zone and strike where we think the weapons are being made, along with Syrian army posts and installations. I'd also warn Assad we've got drones looking for him and stepping down and escaping to Russia might be a smart move.

I know the ramifications could be that AQ ends up taking control. But at this point I view Assad the same as AQ. I just don't see how we can look the other way when a leader uses WMD on his own people.
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:18 AM   #2
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Lots of politics at this point...it really depends on if you believe Obama will live by what they say. You can bet Bill and Hillary are making 90% of the decisions on this deep inside the staff.

If they feel he will attack regardless, then say no....make him defy congress. That will put a major ****ing to mid terms and the next run for President. It would tank his popularity as well. And would probably help us get rid of ObamaCare.

If they think he won't...and are really sure....then authorize it and the ball is back in his court...Congress wins, the Country wins, Obama looks like a turd again.

If you feel like punishment should happen, its like way to damn late. This would be like swatting your dogs ass for taking a shit two weeks ago in the bedroom. Zero value.

Assad doesnt need to step down. He has shown that in a card game, Obama folds. Anything Obama does now makes him look foolish. And with no support from allies, he is cooked.

Drones looking for Assad? WUT? You think we will attempt to kill the leader of another country....wow...big step there.


There is no win in action. The only win is that Syria continues to melt down into a puddle of blood and gore.



Its Washington Hardball time.
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:56 AM   #3
mlyonsd mlyonsd is offline
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Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
Lots of politics at this point...it really depends on if you believe Obama will live by what they say. You can bet Bill and Hillary are making 90% of the decisions on this deep inside the staff.

If they feel he will attack regardless, then say no....make him defy congress. That will put a major ****ing to mid terms and the next run for President. It would tank his popularity as well. And would probably help us get rid of ObamaCare.

If they think he won't...and are really sure....then authorize it and the ball is back in his court...Congress wins, the Country wins, Obama looks like a turd again.

If you feel like punishment should happen, its like way to damn late. This would be like swatting your dogs ass for taking a shit two weeks ago in the bedroom. Zero value.

Assad doesnt need to step down. He has shown that in a card game, Obama folds. Anything Obama does now makes him look foolish. And with no support from allies, he is cooked.

Drones looking for Assad? WUT? You think we will attempt to kill the leader of another country....wow...big step there.


There is no win in action. The only win is that Syria continues to melt down into a puddle of blood and gore.



Its Washington Hardball time.
I was more looking for discussion of what should congress do regardless of politics. Should we let a leader use WMD on his own citizens?

I see it that the issue revolves around what our role in the world should be. I was all for sitting back and let Syria fight it out on their own. WMD changed that for me. To add to that, I'm pretty sure using WMD on your own citizens is against some kind of international law thingy, so taking that leader out isn't really as big a step as you think.
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:03 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
I was more looking for discussion of what should congress do regardless of politics. Should we let a leader use WMD on his own citizens?

I see it that the issue revolves around what our role in the world should be. I was all for sitting back and let Syria fight it out on their own. WMD changed that for me. To add to that, I'm pretty sure using WMD on your own citizens is against some kind of international law thingy, so taking that leader out isn't really as big a step as you think.

Well, he did it. Or someone did it. And No one has done a thing. Doing something now with zero international support is a fools errand. There is also a question of applying civilized values on these sand dwelling 7th century assholes. Do I care , really? I see what he did as immoral and horrible. But its like watching a pack of dogs take down a sick deer.. No fun to see but its gonna happen

Are we in a position to run him off? Not really. Who would we replace him with? How did that work out in Egypt? Obama aligns himself with losers. Morsi, the MB, he turns his back on Israel and lovies up with Hezbollah. No...we dont need to be doing a thing.

Our role in the world is diminished greatly in the last 6 years. The things you suggest can only be done by the power player who has the power and is recognized as such. No such thing today.

Last, its all politics.
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:03 AM   #5
Bowser Bowser is offline
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At this point isn't it more about Russia and them not wanting us to flatten them? After all, Syria is one of Putin's biggest cash cows when it comes to buying weapons, and I'm thinking they don't want to lose that, so they're trying to cock block military action...
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:07 AM   #6
Bowser Bowser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
I was more looking for discussion of what should congress do regardless of politics. Should we let a leader use WMD on his own citizens?

I see it that the issue revolves around what our role in the world should be. I was all for sitting back and let Syria fight it out on their own. WMD changed that for me. To add to that, I'm pretty sure using WMD on your own citizens is against some kind of international law thingy, so taking that leader out isn't really as big a step as you think.
Yeah, this really shouldn't be a debate. All things being equal, any leader that does that against its own citizens needs to be removed from power post haste. Obviously money and the politics surrounding the protection of money clouds the moral compasses of the world leaders.

One of the many potential problems you have with that line of thinking is that Africa would become the continent of a hundred year war, but that is another issue.
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:27 AM   #7
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I applaud the decision to go to congress. Now, the public discussion should be framed in ends, ways, means and risks to the use of military power in Syria. What is the desired end- removal of the Assad regime? Make the case. Is it to act in support of international norms/ alliances and therefore keep international bodies central to our leading from behind national security strategy? Make the case. If the end is not clearly articulated and successfully argued. Vote no. If the end is either or perhaps both offered,what is the way supported by our military action? Support the opposition? Punish Assad to weaken his regime? Show the linkage. If the link is not clear or the risk of the way ( opposition is Islamists opposing us or actually strengthens Assad : history of Nassar, Sadat, Khomeni, Assad's father, khadafy, Saddam etc. or strengthens our enemies while causing our allies not to trust us) vote no. If the means ( use of military power; limited, short duration as defined so far) does not accomplish the desired end or is inconsistent with the ways and increases the risks, short or long term vote no. I kept it to international policy but add the domestic politics to the risk side for the Pres or Congress. Make the case for either. If I were recommending to a congress member, I would bring in the War Powers Act, and the questionable constitutionality as the opportunity this discussion provides to further resolve any military actions without congressional support, either by approving U.S. membership in an international alliance or as a resolution of support of the policy/ action, south of a formal declaration of war.
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:29 AM   #8
mlyonsd mlyonsd is offline
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One of the many potential problems you have with that line of thinking is that Africa would become the continent of a hundred year war, but that is another issue.
At some point the peaceful side of Islam has to step and purge their scourge doesn't it?
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:41 AM   #9
patteeu patteeu is offline
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In a perfect world, where we had a visionary leader in the White House and where our population was capable of winning a war of wills, I'd support an action to take out Assad's regime and support the non-Islamist portions of the opposition. What we learned from Iraq is that where we are willing to pay the price and make a difference, (1) we can permanently eliminate the threat of a ruthless, anti-American dictator ever fielding WMD against us or his own people, (2) we can defeat al Qaeda's attempts to establish territory for itself or gain access to WMD, and (3) we can help the local people find a better, more free life than the one they had under their dictator.

But we don't live in a perfect world. We have an amateur in the White House and it would take the brilliant leader we most definitely don't have to keep our people from losing a battle of wills. A "shot across the bow" that's "just enough not to get mocked" won't have any effect on the outcome of the civil war, IMO. For these reasons, I think Congress should take this opportunity to cast a vote of no confidence in President Obama's leadership.
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:43 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Bowser View Post
At this point isn't it more about Russia and them not wanting us to flatten them? After all, Syria is one of Putin's biggest cash cows when it comes to buying weapons, and I'm thinking they don't want to lose that, so they're trying to cock block military action...

Putin wants no more of a direct confrontation than anyone. He is a thinker and will not react emotionally. He sees this for what it is, a political cluster**** internally for Obama with no benefits to him to get involved.

When you are going to win the round you dont get too deep. just take the win.
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:44 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
At some point the peaceful side of Islam has to step and purge their scourge doesn't it?

Well, its been about 2000 years and it hasnt begun to fester.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:10 AM   #12
Rausch Rausch is offline
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By the time Obamma's spent 6 months to get all the permissions there won't be anyone with any WMD's in Syria...
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:14 AM   #13
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Damascus will be destroyed.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:24 AM   #14
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Not at this point, unless they are 100% sure Assad did it..

There are conflicting reports not only about who did it (Assad, rebels, someone 'rogue' in assad's regime etc.....) but also the number of casualties and that they have been greatly exaggerated. Doctors without borders has said it is less than 400 , I have read anywhere from 175 to 1500.

Imagine if someone rogue in our government let off a chemical weapon, killing a thousand people in chicago. Would we, as a soverign nation, be cool with Syria attacking the pentagon for this?

I think we have to slow down and really verify this, and unfortunately our credibility right now on this issue is about zero.

However, all of that being said, if we are positive Assad is behind this, I wouldnt be opposed to making a symbolic strike.

The problem is that if we **** him up too much, take out command and control or take out too much of his forces, then the Jihadist rebels will move in and take over (most likely).

The biggest problem (and why nothing has been done, by anyone) is that the "solution" here (extremist rebels waiting to take over the government) is possibly far worse (at least temporarily) than the problem.

If congress debates some sort of symbolic action, recognizes these risks, and proceeds to take out ammo dumps or Assad's house/compund on the hill, and some select targets...then I guess I am OK with it...at least it went through the process.

What would NOT have been ok in my eyes is some unilateral hasty action.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:28 AM   #15
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In a perfect world, where we had a visionary leader in the White House and where our population was capable of winning a war of wills, I'd support an action to take out Assad's regime and support the non-Islamist portions of the opposition.
Yes this has worked so well in the past in Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia etc.....

What an outstanding "visionary" Idea....LOL

Supporting only part of a population and fostering resentment and anger by the other, larger part who will no doubt harbor no ill will or bad feelings...

Let's spend our money, effort, time and lives to meddle with THEIR sovereign nation and try to fiddle **** and force them to adopt a system they don't want instead of just letting them be.

Great plan

Too bad you aren't president, its a shame Obama didn't think of those things years ago.
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