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Old 09-01-2013, 09:03 AM  
mlyonsd mlyonsd is offline
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Ok, so now what? Should/will Congress authorize force?

I do, if the case can be made it was actually the Syrian army that used the chemical weapons and not the rebels.

I'd institute a no fly zone and strike where we think the weapons are being made, along with Syrian army posts and installations. I'd also warn Assad we've got drones looking for him and stepping down and escaping to Russia might be a smart move.

I know the ramifications could be that AQ ends up taking control. But at this point I view Assad the same as AQ. I just don't see how we can look the other way when a leader uses WMD on his own people.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:29 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
Not at this point, unless they are 100% sure Assad did it..

There are conflicting reports not only about who did it (Assad, rebels, someone 'rogue' in assad's regime etc.....) but also the number of casualties and that they have been greatly exaggerated. Doctors without borders has said it is less than 400 , I have read anywhere from 175 to 1500.

Imagine if someone rogue in our government let off a chemical weapon, killing a thousand people in chicago. Would we, as a soverign nation, be cool with Syria attacking the pentagon for this?

I think we have to slow down and really verify this, and unfortunately our credibility right now on this issue is about zero.

However, all of that being said, if we are positive Assad is behind this, I wouldnt be opposed to making a symbolic strike.

The problem is that if we **** him up too much, take out command and control or take out too much of his forces, then the Jihadist rebels will move in and take over (most likely).

The biggest problem (and why nothing has been done, by anyone) is that the "solution" here (extremist rebels waiting to take over the government) is possibly far worse (at least temporarily) than the problem.

If congress debates some sort of symbolic action, recognizes these risks, and proceeds to take out ammo dumps or Assad's house/compund on the hill, and some select targets...then I guess I am OK with it...at least it went through the process.

What would NOT have been ok in my eyes is some unilateral hasty action.
There are always conflicting reports in a war zone. We shouldn't expect CSI levels of chain-of-custody proof that Assad personally ordered this attack. That's just unrealistic.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:29 AM   #17
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Taking all politics out of this:

If, IF, a competent, recognized authority provides absolute, irrefutable proof that Syrian government forces used WMDs against anyone, to include its own citizens, our Congress should authorize support to international action for violation of international law.

Yes, the bar high, and it should be.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:30 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
Yes this has worked so well in the past in Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia etc.....

What an outstanding "visionary" Idea....LOL

Supporting only part of a population and fostering resentment and anger by the other, larger part who will no doubt harbor no ill will or bad feelings...

Let's spend our money, effort, time and lives to meddle with THEIR sovereign nation and try to fiddle **** and force them to adopt a system they don't want instead of just letting them be.

Great plan

Too bad you aren't president, its a shame Obama didn't think of those things years ago.
It has worked very well in the past.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:31 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior5 View Post
Taking all politics out of this:

If, IF, a competent, recognized authority provides absolute, irrefutable proof that Syrian government forces used WMDs against anyone, to include its own citizens, our Congress should authorize support to international action for violation of international law.

Yes, the bar high, and it should be.

Who will get in bed with Obama at this point? After Benghazi and how nothing was done to support our own, would anyone go into a warzone with this asshole?
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:32 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
It has worked very well in the past.
Where, SOuth Korea? Japan? Vietnam?

I can't think of one current example in the last 40 years OR with the religious extremist Jihadis where it has worked.

I am not finished with my coffee though, maybe you can tell me which Islamist country this worked so well in , within maybe 2 generations?
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:33 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
There are always conflicting reports in a war zone. We shouldn't expect CSI levels of chain-of-custody proof that Assad personally ordered this attack. That's just unrealistic.
I'll give you the point.

100 % was a mis statement by me.

I'm not asking for CSI levels, just be SURE this time. 99% is fine.

We absolutely positively CAN NOT stand another ****ing humiliation on the likes of what happened in Iraq, so I'd err on the side of caution.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:37 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
Where, SOuth Korea? Japan? Vietnam?

I can't think of one current example in the last 40 years OR with the religious extremist Jihadis where it has worked.

I am not finished with my coffee though, maybe you can tell me which Islamist country this worked so well in , within maybe 2 generations?
It worked in Iraq.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:37 AM   #23
HonestChieffan HonestChieffan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
Not at this point, unless they are 100% sure Assad did it..

There are conflicting reports not only about who did it (Assad, rebels, someone 'rogue' in assad's regime etc.....) but also the number of casualties and that they have been greatly exaggerated. Doctors without borders has said it is less than 400 , I have read anywhere from 175 to 1500.

Imagine if someone rogue in our government let off a chemical weapon, killing a thousand people in chicago. Would we, as a soverign nation, be cool with Syria attacking the pentagon for this?

I think we have to slow down and really verify this, and unfortunately our credibility right now on this issue is about zero.

However, all of that being said, if we are positive Assad is behind this, I wouldnt be opposed to making a symbolic strike.

The problem is that if we **** him up too much, take out command and control or take out too much of his forces, then the Jihadist rebels will move in and take over (most likely).

The biggest problem (and why nothing has been done, by anyone) is that the "solution" here (extremist rebels waiting to take over the government) is possibly far worse (at least temporarily) than the problem.

If congress debates some sort of symbolic action, recognizes these risks, and proceeds to take out ammo dumps or Assad's house/compund on the hill, and some select targets...then I guess I am OK with it...at least it went through the process.

What would NOT have been ok in my eyes is some unilateral hasty action.

Symbolic action. WTF is that about? For ****s sake thats as dumb as anything yet proposed.


What in life is 100%....nuttin . Plus its done over and been to long for your symbolic foolishness to happen.

This is not about military or strategy or tactics. Its 100% Politics, plain and simple.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:38 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
I'll give you the point.

100 % was a mis statement by me.

I'm not asking for CSI levels, just be SURE this time. 99% is fine.

We absolutely positively CAN NOT stand another ****ing humiliation on the likes of what happened in Iraq, so I'd err on the side of caution.
What if we know to that 99% degree of certainty that the attack was launched by government forces and we don't have any reason to believe that it was a local commanding officer gone rogue but we don't have affirmative evidence that Assad ordered it? Because I believe that that's where we're at right now.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:40 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
Symbolic action. WTF is that about? For ****s sake thats as dumb as anything yet proposed.


What in life is 100%....nuttin . Plus its done over and been to long for your symbolic foolishness to happen.

This is not about military or strategy or tactics. Its 100% Politics, plain and simple.
Well its not exactly my proposal...What do you think some cruise missiles are?

Were not going to go full on regime change and support it...

Its going to be symbolic,a gesture to insure that other countries get the message.

I'm sorry this angers you but in between Boots on the ground / regime change/ spending billiuons to nation build....and doing ZERO....there is middle area.

Thats exactly what congress is debating.

A symbolic political gesture.

SOrry you don't get it (yet), you just aren't very smart.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:44 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
Well its not exactly my proposal...What do you think some cruise missiles are?

Were not going to go full on regime change and support it...

Its going to be symbolic,a gesture to insure that other countries get the message.

I'm sorry this angers you but in between Boots on the ground / regime change/ spending billiuons to nation build....and doing ZERO....there is middle area.

Thats exactly what congress is debating.

A symbolic political gesture.

SOrry you don't get it (yet), you just aren't very smart.
There's middle ground between a symbolic attack and a ground invasion. I'm not advocating it, but they could provide air support for the opposition or they could wipe out Assad's fixed wing air capabilities.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:44 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
What if we know to that 99% degree of certainty that the attack was launched by government forces and we don't have any reason to believe that it was a local commanding officer gone rogue but we don't have affirmative evidence that Assad ordered it? Because I believe that that's where we're at right now.
Well thats a tough one...but if Assad can't control his own forces, I would use an example from another region:

Gaza

When Hamas "can't control" some of its more extreme factions and missiles rain down into Israel, they (Israel) do some symbolic retaliatory strikes...I guess for the simple reason that it will send a message that they will not tolerate it.

I don't know if I totally agree with this logic, but to me thats kind of the precedent.

I believe they are considering wiping out Assad's personal compound. SO in your example, maybe they could spare his family and his house if they determine it was a rogue leader.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:46 AM   #28
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There's middle ground between a symbolic attack and a ground invasion. I'm not advocating it, but they could provide air support for the opposition or they could wipe out Assad's fixed wing air capabilities.
Absolutely...

A no fly zone etc....but personally I think that gets to complicated for reasons already discussed.

Whichever side the US supports will not look legitimate within 5-10 years and the US won't get any credit or benefit in the rare cases where something might go right.

I kind of see it as pointless, but I can understand the desire to purge Assad's regime.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:55 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
Absolutely...

A no fly zone etc....but personally I think that gets to complicated for reasons already discussed.

Whichever side the US supports will not look legitimate within 5-10 years and the US won't get any credit or benefit in the rare cases where something might go right.

I kind of see it as pointless, but I can understand the desire to purge Assad's regime.
I pretty much agree with what you're saying here.
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Old 09-01-2013, 12:13 PM   #30
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At some point the peaceful side of Islam has to step and purge their scourge doesn't it?
that's nothing more than a pipe dream...

peaceful muslims do not have guns or militias or a burning desire to become a martyr...

in most cases oppressed people cannot overthrow their oppressors without outside help, and lots of it...

it would be nice if it were possible, but that's not how it works where life is governed by the tyranny of the minority (be it the bath party or the mullahs)...
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