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Old 09-01-2013, 09:03 AM  
mlyonsd mlyonsd is offline
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Ok, so now what? Should/will Congress authorize force?

I do, if the case can be made it was actually the Syrian army that used the chemical weapons and not the rebels.

I'd institute a no fly zone and strike where we think the weapons are being made, along with Syrian army posts and installations. I'd also warn Assad we've got drones looking for him and stepping down and escaping to Russia might be a smart move.

I know the ramifications could be that AQ ends up taking control. But at this point I view Assad the same as AQ. I just don't see how we can look the other way when a leader uses WMD on his own people.
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Old 09-01-2013, 06:48 PM   #46
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Im beginning to understand. Maybe someone can clarify it though. Syrians are fighting Syrians in Syria with the help of some outside random Muslim people from other places who belong to various factions.
Some of those outside Muslim people are funded by us and arming rebels. Our CIA has been in there. They also armed AQ related rebels in Syria too. From there those weapons went into Syria and Africa. I said years ago, here, that we'd eventually be going into Africa. Just read the Clean Break paper from the 90's. Our govt is destabilizing these areas in order to restructure the ME and it's not working.
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Old 09-01-2013, 06:50 PM   #47
dirk digler dirk digler is offline
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Oh YAWN about the Jews. It's not apples to apples even. Civil war is civil war. They are among the nastiest of all wars. Just as internecine warfare is or family wars. It has nothing to do with cowardice. It's just that getting involved doesn't always improve conditions and then we become victims of unintended consequences with things like 9/11 and terrorism. Hitler was western at least...and had we not intervened, allowing the Germans to continue into Russia would have destroyed the Nazis. The Russians pretty much had the Germans defeated and losing by the time we got into it. Then there would have been no Cold War afterwards or a MidEast conflict.

Now, let's look at Rwanda, both sides would just switch sides on committing atrocities. So who does it help? If Belgian rule didn't intervene between the Tutsi and Hutu the ethnic divide wouldn't have increased. In fact many tribes have been at war with each other for eons.

Would you have been in favor of England entering our Civil War on behalf of the South?

This is not a just action. It's just more Wilsonian progressivism. There is no genocide being committed here. You bleeding heart progs create more problems for this country.
I normally would agree that we shouldn't get involved in civil wars but when one side uses WMD's then that changes things. Also you are acting like we aren't involved already, we have provided arms and money to the rebels.
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Old 09-01-2013, 06:51 PM   #48
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I'd be the first to admit that I don't see a good option for getting involved here, but we do have an interest in the nature of the region and a key factor in that nature is that Assad's Syria is one of Iran's key allies. We have an interest in preventing Iran's regional power from growing and, better yet, in shrinking it. Unfortunately, we have competing interests as well (in avoiding the kind of disorder that would allow al Qaeda to thrive) which is why this is such a complex situation.
Assad has been in charge for years. If we do nothing he is still in charge, Iran has not grown in power, they are just buddies with a scumbag who will gas his own.

Iran has never shied away from supporting Muslim Extremists as long as it supports their goals. We take out Assad and in comes a new shitbag who is dependent on Iran. So its a draw. Nothing changes. There is no known faction with the power to hold the power who is pro US or one who is anti Iran.

I agree with your POV but I cannot see any benefit to the US getting mired in another middle east holy war/civil war.
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Old 09-01-2013, 06:52 PM   #49
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I normally would agree that we shouldn't get involved in civil wars but when one side uses WMD's then that changes things. Also you are acting like we aren't involved already, we have provided arms and money to the rebels.
No it doesn't change anything since we've used them before on our civilians, on others and there is no proof that was done by the Syrian govt. There is evidence that it was the AQ-allied rebels from our ally SA giving it to them. Stop being so gullible about the reporting on this.
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Old 09-01-2013, 06:53 PM   #50
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Assad has been in charge for years. If we do nothing he is still in charge, Iran has not grown in power, they are just buddies with a scumbag who will gas his own.

Iran has never shied away from supporting Muslim Extremists as long as it supports their goals. We take out Assad and in comes a new shitbag who is dependent on Iran. So its a draw. Nothing changes. There is no known faction with the power to hold the power who is pro US or one who is anti Iran.

I agree with your POV but I cannot see any benefit to the US getting mired in another middle east holy war/civil war.
Even if we do something Assad may still be in power.
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Old 09-01-2013, 06:59 PM   #51
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I normally would agree that we shouldn't get involved in civil wars but when one side uses WMD's then that changes things. Also you are acting like we aren't involved already, we have provided arms and money to the rebels.
That has worked so well so far, the success supports doing it again only more of it. Linsey Graham and John McCain thank you for your support. Regime change has been pretty much a disaster for everyone who has done it up till now, Maybe Obama has the magic to make it work.
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Old 09-01-2013, 07:01 PM   #52
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No it doesn't change anything since we've used them before on our civilians, on others and there is no proof that was done by the Syrian govt. There is evidence that it was the AQ-allied rebels from our ally SA giving it to them. Stop being so gullible about the reporting on this.
Just like the US was responsible for 9/11 and put bombs in the WTC. Quit being delusional.
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Old 09-01-2013, 07:07 PM   #53
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Just like the US was responsible for 9/11 and put bombs in the WTC. Quit being delusional.
Where did I ever say the US was responsible for putting bombs in the WTC? Nowhere!
In fact I posted the opposite as I've never believed that. I think you have the corner on being delusional.

This has nothing to do with blaming America either, since most Americans are tired of the kind of arguments your making for another war, where they lose their sons and daughters, pay high gas prices and pay for inflated prices in food in order to fund this crap. So polls are not on your side. It has to do with certain interests pushing for this. As I recall, you were the one making the case for the PNAC documents. What I'm saying is no different. In fact, the same people who wrote that are pushing for this. You're just being hypocrite because your guy is in power.

The results of military interventionism have not been consistently positive. So please quit citing WWII which was a war we were directly attacked in and where Germany declared war on us before we did on them. ( because they were an ally of Japan)
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Old 09-01-2013, 07:07 PM   #54
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That has worked so well so far, the success supports doing it again only more of it. Linsey Graham and John McCain thank you for your support. Regime change has been pretty much a disaster for everyone who has done it up till now, Maybe Obama has the magic to make it work.
You are probably right that even if we get rid of Assad a different scumbag will take over. But maybe this scumbag will be a little bit smarter and not use WMD's on his own people unless he wants to get a U.S. missile up his ass.
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Old 09-01-2013, 07:08 PM   #55
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Well we sure are spending some bucks now.....sequestration seems to be over.....Obama moves an entire carrier group in Syrias direction....limited as that may be.



http://mobilebeta.reuters.com/exclus...rerouted-for-1
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Old 09-01-2013, 07:10 PM   #56
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Assad has been in charge for years. If we do nothing he is still in charge, Iran has not grown in power, they are just buddies with a scumbag who will gas his own.

Iran has never shied away from supporting Muslim Extremists as long as it supports their goals. We take out Assad and in comes a new shitbag who is dependent on Iran. So its a draw. Nothing changes. There is no known faction with the power to hold the power who is pro US or one who is anti Iran.

I agree with your POV but I cannot see any benefit to the US getting mired in another middle east holy war/civil war.
I'm not disagreeing with much of what you say. I was just saying that our interests lie in the regional balance of power, not in Syria itself. The difference between now and all those previous years when Assad and his father were in power is that there's a real chance to take him out without doing all the heavy lifting ourselves. Unfortunately, that chance is clouded with negative side effects.
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Old 09-01-2013, 07:10 PM   #57
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You are probably right that even if we get rid of Assad a different scumbag will take over. But maybe this scumbag will be a little bit smarter and not use WMD's on his own people unless he wants to get a U.S. missile up his ass.
So he will still have 1000s of tonnes of gas but we will like hope hes cool and wont use them to stay in power when the next Muslim nut bag shows up....Im liking the possibility here for a major victory.
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Old 09-01-2013, 07:12 PM   #58
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You are probably right that even if we get rid of Assad a different scumbag will take over. But maybe this scumbag will be a little bit smarter and not use WMD's on his own people unless he wants to get a U.S. missile up his ass.
It's a false report that Assad used chem weapons on his people. You haven't learned anything since Iraq, have you?
Are you willing to be such a goody-two-shoes progressive when the risk is a wider war or WWIII?
The blood of Americans will be on your hands, if that happens, Dirk.
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Old 09-01-2013, 07:15 PM   #59
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Where did I ever say the US was responsible for putting bombs in the WTC? Nowhere!
In fact I posted the opposite. I think you have the corner on being delusional.

This has nothing to do with blaming America either, since most Americans are tired of the kind of arguments your making for another war, where they lose their sons and daughters, pay high gas prices and pay for inflated prices in food in order to fund this crap. So polls are not on your side. It has to do with certain interests pushing for this. As I recall, you were the one making the case for the PNAC documents. What I'm saying is no different. In fact, the same people who wrote that are pushing for this. You're just being hypocrite because your guy is in power.
I didn't say you did just pointing out the stupidity of everything is a conspiracy. Sometimes things are just what they are.

My stance has nothing to do with Obama being in charge, as I stated I wanted Bush to use US troops in Darfur and wish Clinton had done more in Rwanda. We don't always have to use our military just because it is in our national interest, we can be a beacon of good and do the right thing by stopping genocide or some POS Dictator gassing his own people.
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Old 09-01-2013, 07:15 PM   #60
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I'm not disagreeing with much of what you say. I was just saying that our interests lie in the regional balance of power, not in Syria itself. The difference between now and all those previous years when Assad and his father were in power is that there's a real chance to take him out without doing all the heavy lifting ourselves. Unfortunately, that chance is clouded with negative side effects.
Agree. Syria is not the tipping point. My worry is who can Obama look to for support? He has ****ed up Egypt. I guess the Saudis are still sorta friendly. Emirates? Gets weaker with each foreign policy effort. I hate to say it but I had a lot more faith in Hillary than I do Kerry and put Kerry, Obama,Rice and Biden in a room and the potential for self inflicted wounds are huge.


I dont see how we remove him without it being a total US effort. Who can we look to for support?
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