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Old 09-01-2013, 09:03 AM  
mlyonsd mlyonsd is offline
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Ok, so now what? Should/will Congress authorize force?

I do, if the case can be made it was actually the Syrian army that used the chemical weapons and not the rebels.

I'd institute a no fly zone and strike where we think the weapons are being made, along with Syrian army posts and installations. I'd also warn Assad we've got drones looking for him and stepping down and escaping to Russia might be a smart move.

I know the ramifications could be that AQ ends up taking control. But at this point I view Assad the same as AQ. I just don't see how we can look the other way when a leader uses WMD on his own people.
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Old 09-01-2013, 07:47 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Using air power to destroy any chemical sites will unleash them on the civilian population. To my knowledge these are not in thinly populated areas. You should know better. You should also know better that bringing down Assad has more to do with a phase in going after Iran or inciting Iran who has already threatened action if we intervene.
That is why I said have SpecOps try to destroy the WMD. I don't even know if it is possible without it leaking out. I am not a chemical weapons expert.
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Old 09-01-2013, 07:50 PM   #77
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US: Assad to Blame for Chemical Attack Even If He Didn’t Do It
Insists Commander in Chief Responsible for Anything That Happens

With increasing doubts about the US allegations of chemical weapons use by Syrian President Bashar Assad, officials have now insisted that it simply doesn’t matter, and they’re going to blame Assad no matter who did it.

“The commander in chief of any military is ultimately responsible for the decisions made under their leadership, even if he’s not the one that pushes the button or says Go on this,” insisted State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf.

That could be a dangerous precedent for President Obama, if he was actually held accountable for everything done during his command. The problem is even bigger, however, as there’s evidence the rebels may have carried out the attacks.

That’s a big part of why the administration is rushing into this war, to avoid getting it preempted by any inconvenient “evidence.” Beyond that, the argument that the evidence doesn’t matter at all is getting more and more overt, with disturbing consequences.

http://news.antiwar.com/2013/08/28/u...e-didnt-do-it/
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Old 09-01-2013, 07:51 PM   #78
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Originally Posted by dirk digler View Post
That is why I said have SpecOps try to destroy the WMD. I don't even know if it is possible without it leaking out. I am not a chemical weapons expert.
What are they able to do with the place in such confusion and a mess?

Seriously, it's war with both sides responsible for atrocities. Stay out of it, and let whoever wins win.
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:08 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by dirk digler View Post
There will always be cowards in this country and around the world that don't want to get involved in situations like this and if Hitler was alive today and gassing Jews they wouldn't want to get involved in that either.
I heard several talking heads on the Sunday shows saying chemical weapons are worse than genocide........ the gist was that the Germans/Japanese didn't use chemical weapons then, using them now is super bad.

First thought I had was WTF? The Nazi's used chemical weapons to kill millions.

Then you have to balance the moral reasons against reality. We can't rid the world of tyranny by ourself. But where is the line? We did nothing in Dafur, we did nothing when the Christians were being slaughtered by Muslims etc.

But people that hate us get gassed and we are now going to risk a wider war to get some revenge? We are not going to be able to stop it from happening again. We can't throw Assad out and we may not even want that anyway.
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I believe Hitler hated Jews and had a lot of them killed. I dont believe it was anywhere close to 6 million though. I'm not an anti-semite; I just think that number has been severely inflated and there is a lot of evidence that supports this belief.
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:12 PM   #80
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That is why I said have SpecOps try to destroy the WMD. I don't even know if it is possible without it leaking out. I am not a chemical weapons expert.
Yes, we can do that, but not without a high probability of our boots on the ground killing Syrians, maybe civilians or worse kill a Russian in the crossfire or accidentally.

that will be a very high risk operation.
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I believe Hitler hated Jews and had a lot of them killed. I dont believe it was anywhere close to 6 million though. I'm not an anti-semite; I just think that number has been severely inflated and there is a lot of evidence that supports this belief.
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Old 09-01-2013, 10:33 PM   #81
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:11 PM   #82
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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I am not sure I buy all his reasons for why, though I think it's part of it. Here, a Four Star General Clark claims
there was a memo to take out "seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and, finishing off, Iran."

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Old 09-01-2013, 11:30 PM   #83
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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The old Soviet regimes are to be taken down. At 3:45 on...."They wanted us to destabilize the ME, turn it upside all the way to those comments in 1991....They can hardly wait to finish Iraq so they can move into Syria." Clark is saying this back in 2007.

Embedding has been disabled on this You Tube video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE4Dg...=TLfpBYemqjjgk

But then in June 2013, he's for using the UN which means our troops to assist Syrian rebels. Oi vey! He's reading the script now that a Democrat is in power.
Geezaz! What gives us the right to establish No Fly Zones. These were never legal even over Iraq.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gHkO...=TLfpBYemqjjgk
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Old 09-02-2013, 12:53 AM   #84
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Aha! You can always count of Ivan Eland of the Independent Institute to bring forward omitted facts about upcoming interventions:

From:The U.S. Will Regret Intervention in Syria
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=4702
As for chemical weapons, hypocrisy reigns here too. First of all, chemical weapons have killed far fewer people over human history than conventional bullets and bombs--in the Syrian civil war, it’s less than 1 percent of the more than 100,000 people killed thus far in the conflict. Chemical weapons hardly have been a “weapon of mass destruction” compared to conventional munitions.
It's also a bullshit lie for the reason, which is regime change. Because Eland mentions this:
Also, in 1988, when Saddam Hussein, then receiving U.S. support in his war with the Iranians, used chemical weapons against his own people, the United States not only didn’t attack him, but looked the other way and lent him another billion dollars six months later.
He raises some other good points like the "dubious doctrine" that it must always be the US to take on such responsibilities, when there are other nations that have the capability—"although the world would be better off and probably have many less deaths overall if all nations followed international law and stayed out of other nations’ business as much as possible, even in cases where people are doing stupid things to themselves in brutal civil wars."

"Responsibility to Protect" doctrine is illegal.
[This]doctrine advocated by U.N. ambassador Samantha Power and others is against international law for a reason. In the world’s system of nation-states, in which only self defense is recognized as a legitimate excuse to use force, the “responsibility to protect” is illegal because of the tremendous potential to cause many more deaths by its huge potential for abuse. For example, the United States has used the “humanitarian” excuse for intervention many times, but the absence of intervention in the above most heinous cases and the existence of other underlying agendas in cases of U.S. intervention show the potential for cynical exploitation; other great powers have done the same.

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Old 09-02-2013, 01:00 AM   #85
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Another thing to consider:

Also by Ivan Eland:
The riskiest path—that of increased military involvement—would likely reignite the so-called War on Terror by creating terrorist groups hostile to Americans, according to Independent Institute Senior Fellow Ivan Eland. New groups targeting countries that are more active than the United States in the Syrian civil war have already emerged.

“To demonstrate, a new Al Qaeda affiliate is emerging out of the Syrian civil war—the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria—but its head, Abu Omar, didn’t list the United States as a target of the group,” Eland writes. “Instead, he listed Iran and Russia. Why? Because Iran and Russia have provided significant military assistance to the Assad regime in Syria, and the United States, to date, hasn’t.”

If the Obama administration increases its military involvement in Syria, it will confirm that Americans have failed to learn two foreign-policy lessons of the past decade. Eland writes: “The two major problems with the American war on terror under both Bush and Obama remain 1) that the American people, especially in the wake of the painful 9/11 episode, were never honest with themselves about the causes of Islamist terrorism, and 2) that the American mentality of policing the world didn’t allow the government to distinguish between those Islamist groups that attacked the United States and those that didn’t, thus focusing any military action on only those in the former category.”
Something to think about for those advocating intervention.
http://www.independent.org/publicati...p?id=1511#3561
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Old 09-02-2013, 06:49 AM   #86
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Well we sure are spending some bucks now.....sequestration seems to be over.....Obama moves an entire carrier group in Syrias direction....limited as that may be.
Sequestration (or the effects thereof) is certainly NOT over... this time next year, DoD will look back on 2013 as a "good" year budget-wise. But back to the topic...

What's missing from this discussion is the OPCW... 189 nations are signatories to the ban on chemical weapons (Syria is NOT one of them). OPCW answers to the UN and the Hague. If the case for chemical weapons is so compelling, why are we hearing nothing from either the UN or the Hague? Why are all of the 189 signatories mute except the US and France? Why the lack of gonads from the world at large?

Any action MUST be multi-lateral; a coalition consisting of more than just the US and France. Congress should insist on that.
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Old 09-02-2013, 07:07 AM   #87
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Sequestration (or the effects thereof) is certainly NOT over... this time next year, DoD will look back on 2013 as a "good" year budget-wise. But back to the topic...

What's missing from this discussion is the OPCW... 189 nations are signatories to the ban on chemical weapons (Syria is NOT one of them). OPCW answers to the UN and the Hague. If the case for chemical weapons is so compelling, why are we hearing nothing from either the UN or the Hague? Why are all of the 189 signatories mute except the US and France? Why the lack of gonads from the world at large?

Any action MUST be multi-lateral; a coalition consisting of more than just the US and France. Congress should insist on that.
Very good questions.
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Old 09-02-2013, 08:03 AM   #88
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As I recall, invading Iraq also had a alleged humanitarian objective as well.
You recall incorrectly, IMO. Or maybe I should say, you're comprehension of what was going on was flawed. Sure, the humanitarian angle was mentioned as a part of the larger case for war, but there never should have been any real confusion that the motivation for the invasion of Iraq came from a concept of American self-interest (although I understand that it differs from your concept of the same).

Even the WMD angle was focused primarily on the idea that we were preventing Saddam from supplying terrorists. The argument that he gassed his own people was a nod toward those influenced by the humanitarian factor, but it also served to demonstrate that Saddam was willing to unleash his arsenal.
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Old 09-02-2013, 08:13 AM   #89
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Sequestration (or the effects thereof) is certainly NOT over... this time next year, DoD will look back on 2013 as a "good" year budget-wise. But back to the topic...

What's missing from this discussion is the OPCW... 189 nations are signatories to the ban on chemical weapons (Syria is NOT one of them). OPCW answers to the UN and the Hague. If the case for chemical weapons is so compelling, why are we hearing nothing from either the UN or the Hague? Why are all of the 189 signatories mute except the US and France? Why the lack of gonads from the world at large?

Any action MUST be multi-lateral; a coalition consisting of more than just the US and France. Congress should insist on that.
We're not hearing anything from the UN because Russia has a veto. It would be pointless, and maybe even counterproductive, to raise this issue in the UN only to have any condemnation vetoed by Russia.

I tend to agree with you to the extent that it would be better for us if any action were multilateral though. That said, the US shouldn't be hostage to any desire for mulitlateralism if we really think it's in our interest to act.
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Old 09-02-2013, 08:58 AM   #90
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I do, if the case can be made it was actually the Syrian army that used the chemical weapons and not the rebels.

I'd institute a no fly zone and strike where we think the weapons are being made, along with Syrian army posts and installations. I'd also warn Assad we've got drones looking for him and stepping down and escaping to Russia might be a smart move.

I know the ramifications could be that AQ ends up taking control. But at this point I view Assad the same as AQ. I just don't see how we can look the other way when a leader uses WMD on his own people.


see....but it wasnt. Do u understand what flase flag ops are?
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