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Old 09-09-2013, 06:05 PM  
Taco John Taco John is offline
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Prediction: Putin wins the next Nobel Peace Prize

Just watch Obama escort Putin to the peace prize podium. It's going to happen, I'm telling ya...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...45a_print.html
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:12 AM   #31
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yeah, we get it, o is incompetent, etc. but what about the russian proposal?

can it work?

would it be better for us if syria gave up its chems to avoid a strike?

would it be better for us if congress gave him his resolution but inserted a 45 day waiting period to give assad a chance to join the chem weapons treaty and destroy its chem weapons under international supervision, along the lines of joe manchin's proposal?
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:15 AM   #32
Prison Bitch Prison Bitch is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Obama wanted Assad not to be able to use chemical weapons
Obama threatened military action, which public seems to be very against

Under the proposed plan, Assad will not have access to chemical weapons
Obama doesn't have to use miltary action

And this is an Obama failure?
What was I saying earlier about the O-Bots claiming victory?
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:16 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Obama wanted Assad not to be able to use chemical weapons
Obama threatened military action, which public seems to be very against

Under the proposed plan, Assad will not have access to chemical weapons
Obama doesn't have to use miltary action

And this is an Obama failure?
If you believe that Obama's only concern is the prevention of WMD use by the Syrians, I guess I can see why you'd think that any degree of humiliation was worth it as long as someone steps in and makes it stop.
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:18 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go bowe View Post
yeah, we get it, o is incompetent, etc. but what about the russian proposal?

can it work?

would it be better for us if syria gave up its chems to avoid a strike?

would it be better for us if congress gave him his resolution but inserted a 45 day waiting period to give assad a chance to join the chem weapons treaty and destroy its chem weapons under international supervision, along the lines of joe manchin's proposal?
Here's the bottom line from my point of view. It's better for us if Assad's regime comes to an end because of the implications for Iran. It's better for the Russians and Iran if it doesn't. Russia's proposal decreases the chances of the former while increasing the chances of the latter.
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:19 AM   #35
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
What was I saying earlier about the O-Bots claiming victory?
Not claiming victory because nothing has happened yet. Just saying that it seems like a decent approach that accomplishes a goal without military action.
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:21 AM   #36
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
If you believe that Obama's only concern is the prevention of WMD use by the Syrians, I guess I can see why you'd think that any degree of humiliation was worth it as long as someone steps in and makes it stop.
You lost me at "any degree of humilation." Getting someone to do what you want doesn't seem like humiliation.
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:24 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
Now the O-bots are claiming their dear leader "made Putin blink". I wish I were making this up, but I'm not.


Ala Kennedy/Khrushchev


Yes this Obama/Putin moment will go down in the anals (sp-) of history.
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:25 AM   #38
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Here's the bottom line from my point of view. It's better for us if Assad's regime comes to an end because of the implications for Iran. It's better for the Russians and Iran if it doesn't. Russia's proposal decreases the chances of the former while increasing the chances of the latter.
You're eager to launch military strikes on the basis of "its better for us." Most people would consider that a pretty weak threshold to justify such action.
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:28 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Here's the bottom line from my point of view. It's better for us if Assad's regime comes to an end because of the implications for Iran. It's better for the Russians and Iran if it doesn't. Russia's proposal decreases the chances of the former while increasing the chances of the latter.
i see your point regarding the self-interest of the russian proposal and agree with that...

i also agree it is in our interest to see assad go, and i'd go so far as to say it would still be better than the present situation even if islamists took power because they certainly would not align with shia iran given the sunni majority...

but i would prefer arming the fsa and moderate secular rebel groups with weapons to take on tanks at the minimum as opposed to a limited strike...

so if syria gives up it's chem weapons without a strike, does that change our position regarding arming the rebels?
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:34 AM   #40
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go bowe View Post
i see your point regarding the self-interest of the russian proposal and agree with that...

i also agree it is in our interest to see assad go, and i'd go so far as to say it would still be better than the present situation even if islamists took power because they certainly would not align with shia iran given the sunni majority...

but i would prefer arming the fsa and moderate secular rebel groups with weapons to take on tanks at the minimum as opposed to a limited strike...

so if syria gives up it's chem weapons without a strike, does that change our position regarding arming the rebels?
This would be such disappointment for patteeu. He had so been looking forward to a good US military intervention.
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:37 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
You lost me at "any degree of humilation." Getting someone to do what you want doesn't seem like humiliation.
And you wondered why Saul Good called you an unwavering apologist.

Obama didn't get anyone to do what he wants. He couldn't get any allies to pledge military assistance for an attack. He couldn't get the American people to support his policy, whatever it is. He couldn't get his closest advisers on the same page with respect to requesting Congressional support. It looks unlikely that he's going to be able to get that Congressional support. He can't even get the majority of his own party to support him. The call for Assad to hand over his WMD was an offhand comment from one of his underlings rather than a part of a carefully orchestrated plan. If Putin is "doing what Obama wants" it's pure coincidence because you can bet that Putin is doing what Putin wants.
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:39 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
You're eager to launch military strikes on the basis of "its better for us." Most people would consider that a pretty weak threshold to justify such action.
I'm not writing a comprehensive policy brief here. But I'm not blindly following Obama wherever his clown car leads me like you are either.
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:40 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by go bowe View Post
i see your point regarding the self-interest of the russian proposal and agree with that...

i also agree it is in our interest to see assad go, and i'd go so far as to say it would still be better than the present situation even if islamists took power because they certainly would not align with shia iran given the sunni majority...

but i would prefer arming the fsa and moderate secular rebel groups with weapons to take on tanks at the minimum as opposed to a limited strike...

so if syria gives up it's chem weapons without a strike, does that change our position regarding arming the rebels?
I wouldn't think so.
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:44 AM   #44
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I wouldn't think so.
so the next question is what is our position on arming the rebels? /donger
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:47 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
And you wondered why Saul Good called you an unwavering apologist.

Obama didn't get anyone to do what he wants. He couldn't get any allies to pledge military assistance for an attack. He couldn't get the American people to support his policy, whatever it is. He couldn't get his closest advisers on the same page with respect to requesting Congressional support. It looks unlikely that he's going to be able to get that Congressional support. He can't even get the majority of his own party to support him. The call for Assad to hand over his WMD was an offhand comment from one of his underlings rather than a part of a carefully orchestrated plan. If Putin is "doing what Obama wants" it's pure coincidence because you can bet that Putin is doing what Putin wants.
And this is what I explained--I challenge the BS. Yeah, no one really wants to involve the military. Yet we want to nuetralize the chemical weapons. A potential plan has been hatched to achieve a goal, yet avoid military use. And to some, this is a failure.

Now you're spinning this as, well, its REALLY what PUTIN wanted. You could spin any conflict that way if you wanted. Anyway, it's irrelevant. It is a potential outcome that achieves a goal without military use.
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