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Old 09-16-2013, 10:51 AM  
Al Bundy Al Bundy is offline
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Naval yard shooting

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...oting/2819543/

WASHINGTON -- Six people were killed and several more wounded when at least one gunman opened fire Monday at the Naval Sea Systems Command headquarters here, the Navy said.

Washington Metropolitan Police Chief Cathy Lanier said one shooter was dead and that police were searching for two more possible shooters. She said one officer was shot in an "engagement'' with one shooter.

"One shooter is deceased,'' she said. "We have multiple victims inside who are deceased. We potentially have two other shooters who have not been located.'

Lanier said police are searching for a white male wearing a tan military-style uniform with short sleeves, a military beret and a hand gun. Police are also searching for a black man around 50 years old wearing an olive drab military style uniform and carrying a long gun, Lanier said.

She said there was no evidence that the suspects were military members.

A federal law enforcement official, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the fluid nature of the investigation, said authorities were investigating the possibility of other shooters, but there was no immediate evidence beyond the single assailant.

Washington DC Mayor Vincent Gray called the incident a "horrific tragedy" and lauded police for their quick response.

Media outlets including CBS and the Associated Press, citing the Navy, said the number of dead had risen to six. Major Ed Buclatin, the public affairs chief for the Navy Installations Command, earlier had tweeted "four killed and eight injured." He also tweeted that reports of more than one shooter had not been confirmed.

I looked on front page of the board, and didn't see it. Forgive me if a Q
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Old 09-16-2013, 05:27 PM   #46
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Old 09-16-2013, 05:30 PM   #47
CrazyPhuD CrazyPhuD is offline
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The principle would be along the lines of Chris Rocks great skit. If every bullet fired got you five years in jail how many bullets would they fire???(BTW verbally NSFW)

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Old 09-16-2013, 05:30 PM   #48
Aries Walker Aries Walker is offline
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Originally Posted by CrazyPhuD View Post
For those of you who want to use events like this to push an irrational agenda to ban rifles because you do not morally approve of guns.

< 400 people are murdered every year by ALL rifles, including those that would not be considered 'assault weapons', 'military style', or whatever current marketing label you want to put on things you don't like. If 400 deaths are grounds to BAN rifles.

Then how can the 10,000+ deaths due to DUIs not be grounds to ban cars, or at least require that every car made be outfitted with an Ignition Interlock Device to prevent anyone from being able to drive drunk? Would you be willing to blow into a tube to show your BAC to start your car(and generally periodically when you're driving), every time you drive to prove you're not drunk?

As harsh as that is, it would save many TIMES the number of lives that banning every single rifle in existence would. The reality is you wouldn't be willing to put equal standards for everything that takes lives. You're only willing to put a harsh standard on guns because you morally disapprove of them. For that I'll say this....

2013 marks the 10 year anniversary of a landmark Supreme Court decision. Lawrence v. Texas struck down the anti-sodomy laws across the nation, which were used to punish a minority group because they were morally disapproved of by the majority.

In Justice O’Conner’s concurring opinion she states the following.
What about those who want to use events like this to push an agenda of universal background checks on every firearm sale, public or private?

I'm not trying to start a vicious flame war - we've had plenty of those here already - I just genuinely want to hear the case against them, if there is one.
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Old 09-16-2013, 05:36 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPhuD View Post
Actually he's from NYC, and given other information he doesn't generally fit the mold of an 'enthusiast'. But what's more interesting is where the weapons came from. You have a supposedly secure facility with armed guards and metal detectors. Plus there is by all accounts a second shooter.

There's a lot of information missing. Unfortunately it's all being abused by people who want to push a political point of view that's based in hate.
Unless they were already at a heightened state of alert it wouldn't be hard to smuggle a gun on post in a car. They don't make you get out so they can search it or anything, you just flash your pass and they let you in.
Different places have different levels of security though and I'm assuming we're just talking about the general security situation.
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Old 09-16-2013, 05:40 PM   #50
Aries Walker Aries Walker is offline
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He used someone else's badge to get in. They haven't yet determined if he stole it, or if he had an accomplice that gave it to him.
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Old 09-16-2013, 05:45 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Aries Walker View Post
He used someone else's badge to get in. They haven't yet determined if he stole it, or if he had an accomplice that gave it to him.
Yea, they were talking about it on the radio earlier.
I'll assume stolen because no soldier/sailor is going to just give up their ID, unless like you say they're in on it. It is a serious offense to lose one for this very reason.
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Old 09-16-2013, 05:49 PM   #52
Aries Walker Aries Walker is offline
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The other possibility, of course, is that the actual owner of the badge is dead in a dumpster somewhere. I wouldn't put much past this animal.
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Old 09-16-2013, 05:51 PM   #53
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Also a possibility. Wouldn't be the first time a soldier/sailor was killed for nothing more than their ID.
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Old 09-16-2013, 05:53 PM   #54
Aries Walker Aries Walker is offline
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And it would be one more hash tag on the list of offenses St. Peter can recite to him as he's on his way to hell.
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Old 09-16-2013, 06:00 PM   #55
CrazyPhuD CrazyPhuD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aries Walker View Post
What about those who want to use events like this to push an agenda of universal background checks on every firearm sale, public or private?

I'm not trying to start a vicious flame war - we've had plenty of those here already - I just genuinely want to hear the case against them, if there is one.
The answer to those who want to make a universal background check is, are you making it harder or are you making it safer? If all you're doing is making it harder then that's discriminatory policy against something because you morally disapprove of it.

The question is can the PROVE that universal background checks would actually succeed in making anyone safer. I think the answer clearly is no, because most purchases of illegal weapons already go through 'straw' purchasers(i.e. people who have no record who buy them for someone else that does). If you wanted to focus on a problem figure out how to address straw purchasers without harming legal owners.

The thing is I can show that requiring a dealer to conduct all transactions will harm legal gun owners. One is cost, by requiring a dealer you now have to pay for a background check. For inexpensive used guns at $100-$200 that $20-30 background check is a large part of the price of the purchase. Requiring background checks for everything WILL raise the cost of buying a gun and those that are lower income will be deterred from buying a gun.

Secondly, how close is your nearest dealer? If someone lives in the country side is their dealer in the next town over? Or further? Imagine someone in western KS that now has to drive to the next town over to buy his neighbor's gun. That can be a serious impediment. Maybe he'll still buy his neighbors gun without a dealer but now he's committed a felony and can be prosecuted for it if anyone turns him in...

You'd think that this would only be a problem in the countryside...but it's not...see universal background checks are Phase 1. Phase 2 is to make the requirements to be a dealer so painful that very few people want to be dealers. Fewer dealers and the further you have to drive, the higher the fees and the more hassle involved in buying a gun that MUST go through a dealer.

You think this is moonbattery pipe dream that this will happen? California has had universal background checks for well over a decade. Want to know how many Federally Licensed dealers that San Francisco has(a city of > 800K people)....ONE....they've driven everyone else out of the city through excessive and targeted fees, regulations and paperwork targeted solely at being a firearms dealer.

And if you want to know the impact of background checks and the potential impact of 'universal background checks'. With today's system ~2% of people who try to buy a firearm fail their background check. In many cases this is actually due to an error in decades old court paperwork.

Los Angeles has a program where the information of everyone buying ammunition is logged for every transaction in the city. It's not a true background check since the police only pick it up irregularly and run it against prohibited people. Generally the people prohibited from buying ammo are the same as those that are prohibited from buying guns.

How many purchasers are found illegal from these spot checks??? 3% of all ammo buyers or 1% more often than those denied gun background checks. While not a perfect proxy for increasing background checks it does give you and idea of the increased number of people you'd catch....i.e. not many.

For the last cautionary tale of universal background checks we go back to California....a state that has had universal background checks for years. As a result of the new discriminating Attorney General, they now process background checks differently. Before if you had certain convictions you were denied and if you didn't you were approved.

Now if you have an arrest, which the state cannot find a resolution for(i.e. you may have never even been charged), that might possibly result in charges that could make you a prohibited person, your purchase is delayed until the arrest can be resolved.

There are people with 30 year old arrests and NO convictions for their life who have guns purchases being delayed for more than 300 days because their arrest has no resolution in the files and often after 10 years or so the courts/cops destroy old records.

These are people who have been convicted of NO crime, who are being effectively denied purchases by being delayed forever because they can't prove that the arrest from years ago was resolved.

What happened to Due Process in America? I though the government had to prove that you were guilty before they could deny you your rights???

Remember these tails aren't things that might happen....they are things that are happening TODAY with universal background checks and a government that does not morally approve of anyone owning firearms.

So to those that say universal background checks are 'reasonable'...I say prove it....

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Old 09-16-2013, 06:17 PM   #56
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Old 09-16-2013, 06:27 PM   #57
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From my daughter who lives near DC:

My son in law's father (career Navy)works at the Yard and was in the building where the shooting started. He was barricaded behind a locked door. They locked down the place as they went room by room.

He's safe and thankful. Carry on.
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Old 09-16-2013, 06:33 PM   #58
Aries Walker Aries Walker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPhuD View Post
The answer to those who want to make a universal background check is, are you making it harder or are you making it safer? If all you're doing is making it harder then that's discriminatory policy against something because you morally disapprove of it.

(etc.)
Ah! I'm glad to hear an argument it that's beyond "They're coming to take my guns!" Thanks!
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Old 09-16-2013, 07:09 PM   #59
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Prolly, but not for that reason. ARs are fun to shoot.
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Old 09-16-2013, 07:14 PM   #60
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He used someone else's badge to get in. They haven't yet determined if he stole it, or if he had an accomplice that gave it to him.
Hearing on cable news that he was a currently employed contractor who had permission to be there.
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