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Old 09-16-2013, 10:51 AM  
Al Bundy Al Bundy is offline
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Naval yard shooting

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...oting/2819543/

WASHINGTON -- Six people were killed and several more wounded when at least one gunman opened fire Monday at the Naval Sea Systems Command headquarters here, the Navy said.

Washington Metropolitan Police Chief Cathy Lanier said one shooter was dead and that police were searching for two more possible shooters. She said one officer was shot in an "engagement'' with one shooter.

"One shooter is deceased,'' she said. "We have multiple victims inside who are deceased. We potentially have two other shooters who have not been located.'

Lanier said police are searching for a white male wearing a tan military-style uniform with short sleeves, a military beret and a hand gun. Police are also searching for a black man around 50 years old wearing an olive drab military style uniform and carrying a long gun, Lanier said.

She said there was no evidence that the suspects were military members.

A federal law enforcement official, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the fluid nature of the investigation, said authorities were investigating the possibility of other shooters, but there was no immediate evidence beyond the single assailant.

Washington DC Mayor Vincent Gray called the incident a "horrific tragedy" and lauded police for their quick response.

Media outlets including CBS and the Associated Press, citing the Navy, said the number of dead had risen to six. Major Ed Buclatin, the public affairs chief for the Navy Installations Command, earlier had tweeted "four killed and eight injured." He also tweeted that reports of more than one shooter had not been confirmed.

I looked on front page of the board, and didn't see it. Forgive me if a Q
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Old 09-16-2013, 07:16 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by CrazyPhuD View Post


If you wanted to make an actual reasonable law that might actually have a chance to impact shootings you'd make a law that would increase the penalty that criminals face for every shot fired in the commission of a violent crime.

Say for every round fired in the commission of a violent crime you get an additional year in prison....regardless if you hit ANYTHING. That would apply a deterrent to criminal shootings even ones that fire 1-2 shots.

But unfortunately it wouldn't make a being a legal gun owner harder or reduce the number of legal gun owners so it will never be passed. But that is a reasonable law to address shootings. Not laws that are sole based on the politicians morally disapproving of anyone owning firearms.
I've been saying the same thing for years!

The other problem is that big cities with high gun control are the worst at prosecuting gun crimes.
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Old 09-16-2013, 07:26 PM   #62
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He used someone else's badge to get in. They haven't yet determined if he stole it, or if he had an accomplice that gave it to him.
Surely they have two factor security? You can't just swipe a badge and get into any place I've worked since 2003.
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Old 09-16-2013, 07:34 PM   #63
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Man call me old fashioned and not very liberal but here's my thoughts: If you attack a function of the united states then you should be treated as an enemy combatant. Post office, schools, bases, etc. Double tap.
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Old 09-16-2013, 07:41 PM   #64
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Man call me old fashioned and not very liberal but here's my thoughts: If you attack a function of the united states then you should be treated as an enemy combatant. Post office, schools, bases, etc. Double tap.
The guy is dead
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Old 09-16-2013, 07:41 PM   #65
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The guy is dead
well then I agree
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Old 09-16-2013, 07:50 PM   #66
CrazyPhuD CrazyPhuD is offline
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Ah! I'm glad to hear an argument it that's beyond "They're coming to take my guns!" Thanks!
Well that's a simple argument for many people to understand(and realistically not an untrue one).

Really it comes down to this, there have been many states that historically show a pattern of discrimination against gun owners.

My response is simply prove that your solution A. has a reasonable chance of being effective and B. is narrowly target at the criminal/public safety aspect. If you can prove that we can talk about what is reasonable.

But most of the bullshit thrown up under 'reasonable' is so broadly targeted that most of the people that are impacted are innocent and only rarely will it impact crime.

Which comes down to A....you're intent all along was to reduce the number of legal gun owners(or make it much harder to practice their hobby) or B...that you're ****ing incompetent as a politician(lets be honest many of them on both sides are).

For instance voter ID laws really don't sound 'bad' because who wants an election impacted by fraud. But if you look at the problem it's trying to solve(i.e. voter fraud) it really doesn't exist on a significant scale. AND the effect that's not publicly listed is that many low income and minority voters don't actually have IDs. So you're putting a law into place that will actually make it harder for those groups to vote without actually showing there is a problem to solve.

Does anyone really believe that any political party is populated by people who are actually less of a bigot against groups that they don't like or won't vote for them? History is loaded with examples of groups that are persecuted and when they get into power turn around and persecute those that are against them.

Remember for guns the terms....'Assault weapon', 'Miltary style', etc have no more technical distinction than 'Cheerios', 'Fruit Loops' and 'Frosted Flakes'...they are solely marketing terms, the difference is instead of marketing a product they are used to market hate.
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Old 09-16-2013, 07:52 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Bo's Pelini View Post
The guy is dead
yea but if we make him into a zombie we can shoot him again.
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:12 PM   #68
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If you're curious about 'reasonable' gun laws and universal background check. If you want to see the future....take a look at the past...note most of these are written by very liberal papers.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/A...ss-3067836.php

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/articl...ax-2713836.php

http://missionlocal.org/2010/09/the-...ts-to-re-open/

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/articl...se-3711674.php

your future of hate is already some people's past.
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:40 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by CrazyPhuD View Post
The answer to those who want to make a universal background check is, are you making it harder or are you making it safer? If all you're doing is making it harder then that's discriminatory policy against something because you morally disapprove of it.

The question is can the PROVE that universal background checks would actually succeed in making anyone safer. I think the answer clearly is no, because most purchases of illegal weapons already go through 'straw' purchasers(i.e. people who have no record who buy them for someone else that does). If you wanted to focus on a problem figure out how to address straw purchasers without harming legal owners.
I don't see universal background checks as a panacea, but they are a deterrent in some cases. Arguing that because a remedy is only partially effective, it should not be tried is like arguing that we should not have a border fence because it does not prevent all illegals from pouring across the border (or really any laws at all, which by definition are never 100% effective, or we would not need any courts).

A major problem with the gun laws we already have is that the enforcement is pathetic. The ATF has the same number of agents today that it had back in the 70s, with the guns and crimes having increased by a couple of orders of magnitude. Just now, for the first time in 6+ years the ATF had a director approved. The NRA needs to stop with its juvenile demonization of law enforcement on this. But additionally, federal prosecutors in front of a Senate panel this year could not identify any number of cases (not one) of people being prosecuted for lying on the background check forms. No one is checking them at all, so I'm not sure that stronger laws would help without a decent enforcement mechanism.

On the straw purchases, I will say that a decent amount of illegal guns I see are from straw purchases, though more are probably from rural burglaries. But I would not oppose stronger rules against the straw purchasers. However, it would be a very difficult crime to prove on many occasions. Everyone has the built in excuses "I didn't know they were a felon" and "I didn't know what they were going to do with it". Absent a specific witness (few of whom are eagerto get in the mix in a gun crime) it would be almost impossible in a two party transaction. If I have a background form which either (1)the check wasn't run, or (2) the information was fraudulent, then much easier to prove.

The cases that this is going to help with are the ones with the middle class-upper class spoiled kids who have been in some trouble, play shoot em up games, live in their bedroom with diaries and have 12 screws loose. These kids aren't really in the right social circles to just rollup to a drug dealer and acquire an illegal firearm. The dealers will think they are Narcs or worse. It's just not a circle they travel in, and it will make it more difficult. I think the Newtown shooter probably fell into this category, but it didn't matter because he stole the weapons. But the problem with deterrence is that we won't ever hear about any shootings that were prevented in other situations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPhuD
The thing is I can show that requiring a dealer to conduct all transactions will harm legal gun owners. One is cost, by requiring a dealer you now have to pay for a background check. For inexpensive used guns at $100-$200 that $20-30 background check is a large part of the price of the purchase. Requiring background checks for everything WILL raise the cost of buying a gun and those that are lower income will be deterred from buying a gun.
I really don't think someone who is committed to buying a firearm is going to be terribly deterred by the 20-30$. This is like saying people won't get a car because of the registration fee, or won't get a cellphone because of the universal service fees. When it's a fee @10% of the price and the good is relatively inelastic, the societal tradeoff is probably worth it.

Even in the current state of affairs, FFL sales FAR exceed private dealer sales. If it were truly cost-prohibitive. you would think there would be a significant advantage to the private dealer and it would show in the sales.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazypHuD
Secondly, how close is your nearest dealer? If someone lives in the country side is their dealer in the next town over? Or further? Imagine someone in western KS that now has to drive to the next town over to buy his neighbor's gun. That can be a serious impediment. Maybe he'll still buy his neighbors gun without a dealer but now he's committed a felony and can be prosecuted for it if anyone turns him in...
I can speak on this subject with some authority. There is probably an FFL within a 30-50 mile radius wherever you are in Western KS (except maybe the far NW corner- I guess those folks go to Nebraska though).

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPhuD
You'd think that this would only be a problem in the countryside...but it's not...see universal background checks are Phase 1. Phase 2 is to make the requirements to be a dealer so painful that very few people want to be dealers. Fewer dealers and the further you have to drive, the higher the fees and the more hassle involved in buying a gun that MUST go through a dealer.
Who has proposed this "Stage 2" anywhere (that there wasn't already a total ban in place)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPhuD
You think this is moonbattery pipe dream that this will happen? California has had universal background checks for well over a decade. Want to know how many Federally Licensed dealers that San Francisco has(a city of > 800K people)....ONE....they've driven everyone else out of the city through excessive and targeted fees, regulations and paperwork targeted solely at being a firearms dealer.
I don't know where you got this piece of data from, but I checked a source. This is a current list from CA and it has roughly 10-11 listing SF as the address (not including all the piddly little towns around it). Maybe they have made it marginally harder, but not hard enough it appears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPhuD
And if you want to know the impact of background checks and the potential impact of 'universal background checks'. With today's system ~2% of people who try to buy a firearm fail their background check. In many cases this is actually due to an error in decades old court paperwork.
No offense, but this is a strange point. Only 2% fail? Good. It's the same friggin 2% that I see everyday doing the same stupid sh*t. And it's probably the .0001% who are committing these mas homicides. I wouldn't expect the rate to be a lot higher than that.

As i stated previously, it's very difficult to show the good that the background checks do, because we don't get to see the violent crimes that were prevented. It might be interesting to see some case studies of what the type of people who are being denied looks like though and try to see if those are people we think it would be good to get a gun in their hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPhuD
Los Angeles has a program where the information of everyone buying ammunition is logged for every transaction in the city. It's not a true background check since the police only pick it up irregularly and run it against prohibited people. Generally the people prohibited from buying ammo are the same as those that are prohibited from buying guns.

How many purchasers are found illegal from these spot checks??? 3% of all ammo buyers or 1% more often than those denied gun background checks. While not a perfect proxy for increasing background checks it does give you and idea of the increased number of people you'd catch....i.e. not many.

For the last cautionary tale of universal background checks we go back to California....a state that has had universal background checks for years. As a result of the new discriminating Attorney General, they now process background checks differently. Before if you had certain convictions you were denied and if you didn't you were approved.

Now if you have an arrest, which the state cannot find a resolution for(i.e. you may have never even been charged), that might possibly result in charges that could make you a prohibited person, your purchase is delayed until the arrest can be resolved.
This is the same rule everywhere. Federally too. The Feds send the prosecuting office a letter and if you don't reply within 3 days, the gun sale is allowed to go through. Don't see anything wrong with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPhuD
There are people with 30 year old arrests and NO convictions for their life who have guns purchases being delayed for more than 300 days because their arrest has no resolution in the files and often after 10 years or so the courts/cops destroy old records.

These are people who have been convicted of NO crime, who are being effectively denied purchases by being delayed forever because they can't prove that the arrest from years ago was resolved.

What happened to Due Process in America? I though the government had to prove that you were guilty before they could deny you your rights???
This may well be a valid criticism of an inefficiency of California's rules. But, as I have explained, the Federal system on that topic provides a mechanism to resolve this. California should adopt it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPhuD
Remember these tails aren't things that might happen....they are things that are happening TODAY with universal background checks and a government that does not morally approve of anyone owning firearms.

So to those that say universal background checks are 'reasonable'...I say prove it....
Even most NRA members think that universal background checks are a good idea.

This shooter at the navy yard had a checkered history with psych treatments and two gun-related criminal charges. So far i haven't heard anything that would've disqualified this guy on a background check though.

One of the biggest weaknesses in this current system is that mental health information is often incomplete or insufficient. You usually have to be Adjudicated mentally defective by a judge in order to be denied a firearm. Very few people, even those with serious mental illnesses meet this standard. Then again, you don't want the mental health component so loose that anyone who went through grief therapy is going to be denied. It's a very difficult puzzle to solve.

Background checks in most places if you are a concealed carry permit holder are so easy that you just have to show your card. No call in. If people are really this troubled by the hassle, then just apply for the CCP and you won't have to wait.

Background checks are the very minimum thing we can do to address this epidemic of mass shootings. It won't stop all of them, and may only stop a couple, but IMO the minor inconveniences, like those with driving a car are worth it.

In many states it is now more difficult to vote than to buy a firearm. That seems wrong to me. At least show a photo ID if you are going to require one at the polls.
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:42 PM   #70
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Remember for guns the terms....'Assault weapon', 'Miltary style', etc have no more technical distinction than 'Cheerios', 'Fruit Loops' and 'Frosted Flakes'...they are solely marketing terms, the difference is instead of marketing a product they are used to market hate.
I agree that the use of these terms in the MSM is mainly silly.

I just heard I think it might have been Jake Tapper on CNN act astonished when he said "so this is a weapon that you can just pull the trigger multiple times and it will go bang bang bang each time?"

It makes me want to scream "A ****ing revolver will go bang bang bang when you pull the trigger unless it is an old timey single action from the last century". Unless we are going to go back to muzzle loading muskets, then it is painful to listen to these people say things like this.
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:47 PM   #71
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Surely they have two factor security? You can't just swipe a badge and get into any place I've worked since 2003.
Not to get past the gate and get on base. Getting into a facility, sure.
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:54 PM   #72
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Not to get past the gate and get on base. Getting into a facility, sure.
I've not been able to get into rooms without badge and pin # even in retail shops.

Public info now............
The Navy had been investigating contractor access and controls at the shipyards. They found that the Navy was not doing enough to control contractor access to areas due to budget cuts. They got rid of controls that were in place to save the money due to cutbacks.
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:03 PM   #73
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I've not been able to get into rooms without badge and pin # even in retail shops.

Public info now............
The Navy had been investigating contractor access and controls at the shipyards. They found that the Navy was not doing enough to control contractor access to areas due to budget cuts. They got rid of controls that were in place to save the money due to cutbacks.
Bet they allocate those funds again quickly.
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:08 PM   #74
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Bet they allocate those funds again quickly.
Cut shit like that but keep buying multimillion $ planes the DOD doesn't even want.
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:13 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
Cut shit like that but keep buying multimillion $ planes the DOD doesn't even want.
Gaurds, guns, and gates. Security 101.
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An' it's probably gonna happen again.

T. Byrd
Posts: 36,334
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