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Old 09-16-2013, 10:51 AM  
Al Bundy Al Bundy is offline
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Naval yard shooting

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...oting/2819543/

WASHINGTON -- Six people were killed and several more wounded when at least one gunman opened fire Monday at the Naval Sea Systems Command headquarters here, the Navy said.

Washington Metropolitan Police Chief Cathy Lanier said one shooter was dead and that police were searching for two more possible shooters. She said one officer was shot in an "engagement'' with one shooter.

"One shooter is deceased,'' she said. "We have multiple victims inside who are deceased. We potentially have two other shooters who have not been located.'

Lanier said police are searching for a white male wearing a tan military-style uniform with short sleeves, a military beret and a hand gun. Police are also searching for a black man around 50 years old wearing an olive drab military style uniform and carrying a long gun, Lanier said.

She said there was no evidence that the suspects were military members.

A federal law enforcement official, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the fluid nature of the investigation, said authorities were investigating the possibility of other shooters, but there was no immediate evidence beyond the single assailant.

Washington DC Mayor Vincent Gray called the incident a "horrific tragedy" and lauded police for their quick response.

Media outlets including CBS and the Associated Press, citing the Navy, said the number of dead had risen to six. Major Ed Buclatin, the public affairs chief for the Navy Installations Command, earlier had tweeted "four killed and eight injured." He also tweeted that reports of more than one shooter had not been confirmed.

I looked on front page of the board, and didn't see it. Forgive me if a Q
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Old 09-17-2013, 07:21 PM   #121
Aries Walker Aries Walker is offline
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Originally Posted by rockymtnchief View Post
“With just one single exception, the attack on congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords in Tucson in 2011, every public shooting since at least 1950 in the U.S. in which more than three people have been killed has taken place where citizens are not allowed to carry guns.”
http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...ings-john-fund
Well, that's not true at all. There have been quite a few that took place outdoors, and there are places like machine shops and that Texas cafeteria where guns weren't prohibited. Most obviously, the UT Austin complex in 1966 absolutely wasn't gun-free - many of the students were carrying guns in their cars (or, it being Texas, their trucks).

That said, yeah, most of them were, but that's because the frequency and deadliness of rampage killings are both increasing, and these days most public gathering places are gun-free.
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Old 09-17-2013, 07:26 PM   #122
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State Law Prevented Sale of Assault Rifle to Suspect Last Week, Officials Say
By MICHAEL S. SCHMIDT
Published: September 17, 2013

WASHINGTON — The gunman who killed 12 people at the Washington Navy Yard on Monday test-fired an AR-15 assault rifle at a Virginia gun store last week but was stopped from buying one because state law there prohibits the sale of such weapons to out-of-state buyers, according to two senior law enforcement officials.

Instead, the gunman, Aaron Alexis of Texas, bought a law-enforcement-style shotgun — an 870 Remington pump — and used it on Monday as he rampaged through the navy yard, said the officials, who requested anonymity because the investigation was continuing.

“The gun was broken in half, and he had it in a bag,” one official said of the Remington. “He went inside the building and assembled it in a bathroom.”

The gunman then perched himself above an atrium where he fired down on people who had been eating breakfast, officials said, adding that he used shotgun shells that had roughly a dozen large ball-bearing-like shots in them, increasing their lethal nature.

“When he discharged, the pieces of lead would spread the farther they went,” the one official said. “It is similar to weapons used in bird shooting but on a more serious scale. These were not bullets but many small pieces of lead flying through the air.”

After firing down on people, the gunmen began to search for more people to shoot, and as he searched, he was confronted by a security guard near an exit, according to the officials. The gunman shot the guard and took his semiautomatic handgun, then headed back to the atrium.

“He runs back upstairs and cranks off more rounds with the handgun and then heads to another stairwell, where he confronts a worker there and shoots him,” the official said.

The gunman is believed to have shot the Navy employee, who worked in maintenance, with the pistol near another exit.

On Saturday, Mr. Alexis bought the Remington shotgun and ammunition at the gun store and range in Lorton, Va., Sharpshooters Small Arms Range, where he also rented a rifle and practiced with it, according to a lawyer for the store.

The lawyer, J. Michael Slocum, said in an e-mail that Mr. Alexis bought a Remington 870 Express 12-gauge shotgun and about two boxes of ammunition, or about 24 shells. The purchases were approved after the store owner conducted the required federal background check, Mr. Slocum said.

“After the terrible and tragic events at the Navy Yard, the Sharpshooters was visited by federal law enforcement authorities, who reviewed the Range’s records, including video and other materials,” Mr. Slocum wrote. “So far as is known, Mr. Alexis visited the Range only once, and he has had no other contact with the Range.”

The Virginia State Police said Tuesday that Mr. Alexis had passed all state and local background checks to buy the shotgun.

Despite statements on Monday from senior law enforcement officials — which were widely reported in the news media, including in The New York Times — that an AR-15 had been found at the scene, no such gun has been found. The authorities say they do not believe the gunman used one.

Federal officials said that there was some initial confusion at the scene about which firearms had been used and that it was hours before investigators were able to analyze video from the scene.

It is unclear whether Mr. Alexis’s psychiatric issues ever progressed to the point that he was involuntarily committed to a mental health institution, or legally determined to be mentally ill or incompetent, either of which would have barred him from buying a gun.

If neither applied — and most people who are treated for mental illness never get to that point — then his situation would be similar to other gunmen, like Jared L. Loughner, who killed 6 people and wounded 13, including former Representative Gabrielle Giffords, in Tucson in 2011, and James E. Holmes, who killed 12 people and wounded dozens in a Colorado movie theater last year.

Mental health experts point out that the vast majority of people with mental illness are never violent. On the other hand, studies have found an increased risk for violence among those with serious mental illness, including schizophrenia, major depression or bipolar disorder.

Michael Luo contributed reporting from New York.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/18/us...-say.html?_r=0
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Old 09-17-2013, 07:30 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Aries Walker View Post
and these days most public gathering places are gun-free.
Not in these parts. The state of Florida gave out the millionth concealed carry permit recently.
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I believe Hitler hated Jews and had a lot of them killed. I dont believe it was anywhere close to 6 million though. I'm not an anti-semite; I just think that number has been severely inflated and there is a lot of evidence that supports this belief.
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Old 09-17-2013, 07:33 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
Not in these parts. The state of Florida gave out the millionth concealed carry permit recently.
Yeah we're armed to the teeth in AZ too. Gabby shooting happened anyway but it could have been worse.
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Old 09-17-2013, 07:46 PM   #125
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22 currently serving military members commit suicide every single day. 27/7/365...
Could you cite your source, please?

"The number of suicide deaths in the U.S. military surged to a record 349 last year — more than the 295 Americans who died fighting in Afghanistan in 2012. The numbers were first reported by the AP; NPR has confirmed them."

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...deaths-in-2012

I mean, 349 is still a big number, but it's less than one per day. Perhaps your source includes those who are no longer serving?
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Old 09-17-2013, 07:54 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Aries Walker View Post
Well, that's not true at all. There have been quite a few that took place outdoors, and there are places like machine shops and that Texas cafeteria where guns weren't prohibited. Most obviously, the UT Austin complex in 1966 absolutely wasn't gun-free - many of the students were carrying guns in their cars (or, it being Texas, their trucks).

That said, yeah, most of them were, but that's because the frequency and deadliness of rampage killings are both increasing, and these days most public gathering places are gun-free.
At the time, you were not allowed to take guns into public places. These happened before CCW laws. Basically making them a gun free zone. The Luby Cafeteria shooting pretty much led to Texas opening up it's CCW laws. You could have a firearm in your vehicle, but not in public places.

And from what I've read, the "frequency" of mass shootings during 2000-2010 dropped, compared to the 90's. I think the internet and the medias expanded coverage has made it seem like more are happening. It used to be that you'd read or hear the story, and that was it. Now we know every detail about the shooter, trial coverage, nation wide memorials, etc...

However, I won't argue about the actual number of people killed. I don't know the numbers, but the shooters seem to be doing their homework and finding easier targets.

Adam Lanza had a choice of 5 or 6 theaters in the area to chose from. (Some closer to where he lived) He chose the only one that had "Gun Free" stickers in the window.
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Old 09-17-2013, 07:56 PM   #127
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State Law Prevented Sale of Assault Rifle to Suspect Last Week, Officials Say
By MICHAEL S. SCHMIDT
Published: September 17, 2013

WASHINGTON — The gunman who killed 12 people at the Washington Navy Yard on Monday test-fired an AR-15 assault rifle at a Virginia gun store last week but was stopped from buying one because state law there prohibits the sale of such weapons to out-of-state buyers, according to two senior law enforcement officials.
You do realize that these statements made in the article are utter bullshit right? Plus one nasty bit about gun laws....especially the more complex they get is that the people who are expected to enforce often know the least about it. It's generally arrest everyone and let the DA decide if they should prosecute.

So if you want to see the VA laws in question they're here. The only requirements that would have prohibited him from purchasing any long arm is if it would be prohibited from being bought in his resident state. But that is actually a FEDERAL law not a state one...so it depends upon what his state of residence was.

here's the code listings in question.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...d+18.2-308.2C2

Quote:
"Assault firearm" means any semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol which expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine which will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock.
This is the definition they are trying to refer to in question...IF he wanted to buy an AR and 100% be certain he had no issue all that he would have to do is buy one with a magazine of 20rds or less and no folding stock(almost NO ARs have a folding stock because of how they operate...they have telescoping stocks which are different). Considering that many ARs come with 20rd magazines this would have been a non issue to get around.

Here is the only term referring to 'assualt firearms'

Quote:
In addition, no dealer shall sell, rent, trade or transfer from his inventory any assault firearm to any person who is not a citizen of the United States or who is not a person lawfully admitted for permanent residence. To establish citizenship or lawful admission for a permanent residence for purposes of purchasing an assault firearm, a dealer shall require a prospective purchaser to present a certified birth certificate or a certificate of birth abroad issued by the United States State Department, a certificate of citizenship or a certificate of naturalization issued by the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services, an unexpired U.S. passport, a United States citizen identification card, a current voter registration card, a current selective service registration card, or an immigrant visa or other documentation of status as a person lawfully admitted for permanent residence issued by the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services.
If he couldn't have bought it then he certainly could not have legally rented it either.

Quote:
5. Notwithstanding any other provisions of this section, rifles and shotguns may be purchased by persons who are citizens of the United States or persons lawfully admitted for permanent residence but residents of other states under the terms of subsections A and B upon furnishing the dealer with proof of citizenship or status as a person lawfully admitted for permanent residence and one photo-identification form issued by a governmental agency of the person's state of residence and one other form of identification determined to be acceptable by the Department of Criminal Justice Services.
This is basically the standard clause that says out of state can buy rifles and shotguns. The only general exception to being able to buy rifles and shotguns out of state is that it must follow the laws of your home state. if your home state is OK with it no problem. If he could have legally bought the shotgun and rented the AR then he could have legally bought the AR.

He choose not too, likely because like any one gone through bootcamp would know if you want something for close quarters you buy a shotgun.

Hell I personally don't keep any firearm for self defense, but if anyone I know asks me I tell them if you want one for self defense you buy a shotgun, you don't buy a pistol for self defense at home unless you are willing to train monthly to be able to use it well. Shotguns are WAY more effective at close range.
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Old 09-17-2013, 07:57 PM   #128
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Banyon I still owe you a response to your response to my original post but things have been to busy to do it right now. Hopefully later tonight.
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Old 09-17-2013, 08:11 PM   #129
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So, he apparently bought along one shotgun, which he bought perfectly legally in Virginia ("Virginia", as in "Tech Shooter Also Bought His Guns Here Just As Legally"), one week earlier. The gun store - who is understandably paranoid, silent, and/or mortified right now - insists that they followed state law, and I am guessing they probably did. That state law says they may not sell a gun to someone who was convicted of a crime (Alexis was charged with several, but not convicted), was admitted to a mental institution (Alexis was under care for a growing mental case, but had not been admitted), or someone who had been dishonorably discharged from the military (Alexis had a general discharge, due to those first two instances).

So, the question is this: What could anyone have done to have kept this guy with that gun out of that room at that time, without nullifying the rights of other people to own firearms under the Second Amendment, his right to confidentiality of his mental health records?

I think Cave Johnson is on to something. The AP today reported that he had been treated for mental disorders since August, had been suffering from paranoia and sleep disorders, and had been hearing voices. I think maybe they should have taken his badge away for a while, and put him on the employment version of IR.

I think we could also benefit from a no-sell list, on which licensed psychiatrists can place mental patients suffering from disorders like this, and which would prevent them from passing a firearm background check, while automatically notifying the psychiatrist of the attempt. It wouldn't have to be permanent - patients who get better can later be removed - and I would be OK with limiting placing privileges to actual psychiatrists, who are MD's, and not psychologists or counselors, who aren't. To me, this wouldn't be a gun control option as much as it is a method to identify a mental health patient who is completely imploding.

The issue can admittedly get really complicated and emotional, but this specific case seems like simple fixes can keep it from happening again.
I think we can benefit from admitting mental patients suffering from disorders like this. It could prevent them from victimizing people in the first place. They could be treated and monitored for an extended period of time and periodically evaluated to determine if they have the appropriate tools and treatments available to be a functioning, non threatening member of society. It wouldn't have to be permanent just a way to keep tabs on people on the verge of crisis.
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Old 09-17-2013, 08:17 PM   #130
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I think we can benefit from admitting mental patients suffering from disorders like this. It could prevent them from victimizing people in the first place. They could be treated and monitored for an extended period of time and periodically evaluated to determine if they have the appropriate tools and treatments available to be a functioning, non threatening member of society. It wouldn't have to be permanent just a way to keep tabs on people on the verge of crisis.
Exactly, you take away the guns and the criminally insane are just going to start using sporks.
We have a mental health problem that is much bigger than our gun problem.
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Old 09-17-2013, 08:22 PM   #131
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The shooter took Biden's advice an purchased a shotgun.
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Old 09-17-2013, 08:29 PM   #132
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At the time, you were not allowed to take guns into public places. These happened before CCW laws. Basically making them a gun free zone. The Luby Cafeteria shooting pretty much led to Texas opening up it's CCW laws. You could have a firearm in your vehicle, but not in public places.

And from what I've read, the "frequency" of mass shootings during 2000-2010 dropped, compared to the 90's. I think the internet and the medias expanded coverage has made it seem like more are happening. It used to be that you'd read or hear the story, and that was it. Now we know every detail about the shooter, trial coverage, nation wide memorials, etc...

However, I won't argue about the actual number of people killed. I don't know the numbers, but the shooters seem to be doing their homework and finding easier targets.

Adam Lanza had a choice of 5 or 6 theaters in the area to chose from. (Some closer to where he lived) He chose the only one that had "Gun Free" stickers in the window.
In 1966 in Austin, Texas, you were definitely allowed to. It was a school campus, with large amounts of students sporting loaded pickup truck racks. They were the reason Whitman did all of his damage in the first 20 minutes; police deputized a bunch of huntin'-since-childhood good ol' boys so they'd return fire, which they did. One cop even using his personal credit card to buy a kid ammo at the local sporting goods store. After that, every time Whitman's shadow darkened a downspout/firing port, bullets ping-ping-ping'ed off the balustrade so much he couldn't get a shot. (Seriously, pro-gun people: Read the book Sniper in the Tower; it was the most effective armed citizenry response to a spree killer in American history, by far.)

I will defer to you on Luby's. I am basing my knowledge on the fact that one of the patrons meant to carry her pistol in there, but accidentally left it in her car.

But there are still a bunch that happened outside.
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Old 09-17-2013, 08:51 PM   #133
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The sad fact is, these aren't tragedies. They're the cost we've decided to bear for a society awash in poorly regulated military grade guns.

If it's predictable and preventable (see Aus) and we choose to do nothing about it because freedom, that's on us.
I haven't got a single post further in the thread and I'll bet Frazod has lost his mother****ing mind.
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High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s

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Old 09-17-2013, 08:56 PM   #134
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I haven't go a single post further in the thread and I'll bet Frazod has lost his mother****ing mind.
Hey Dave, somewhere a little girl is saying her bedtime prayers. You should go kick her in the face and tell her there is no God.
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Old 09-17-2013, 09:02 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris616 View Post
High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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