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Old 10-01-2013, 09:37 AM  
Frazod Frazod is offline
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Has anybody actually been affected by the shut down yet?

Do we have any furloughed government workers posting?

Anybody sucking a living off the government teat worried about that next welfare check rolling in?

Anybody having to rethink that scheduled trip to the Grand Canyon next week?

Let's hear about it.
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:52 PM   #106
Amnorix Amnorix is offline
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
This will count as the 4th time to address this nonsense. No, no and no. This is TOTAL Federal spending within that state not money allocated to the state (although that is of course included). In some cases that spending represents a benefit; in other cases not so much. Your representation of the data is pretty much meaningless given what the actual data is. You'll need to dig down and parse the data yourself if you want to draw any meaningful conclusions from it.

Can you give just one example of how federal dollars flowing into a state does not benefit the citizens of that state, primarily?

I'm frankly not going to bother to parse the data more thoroughly. It seems fairly clear to me that if $2.08 of federal dollars goes into North Dakota per person for every federal dollar of taxes paid -- whether to park rangers living there, or for highway repair dollars, or supplemtnal funding for schools, or social security income, then it primarily benefits North Dakotans.
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:53 PM   #107
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Is this gonna delay Welfare and Social Security?

I hope so because i have some shopping to do and shopping on welfare check day is a nightmare.
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:54 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Detoxing View Post
Is this gonna delay Welfare and Social Security?

I hope so because i have some shopping to do and shopping on welfare check day is a nightmare.
Walmart should be wide open, brother!
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:56 PM   #109
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Walmart should be wide open, brother!
I hope so man. My wife knows how much i hate grocery shopping on the first of the month....

The lines are long and lines are gheeeeeetooooo
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:58 PM   #110
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Here, I'll create a goofy extreme situation to illustrate my point because I'm sleepy and I don't really have a dog in this fight:

Suppose the feds send a billion dollars to Arizona for some shiny new Abort-o-Matic vending machines. It's authorized by the Every Child Left Behind Act that those horrible Dems pushed through and Obama signed. But everyone knows that Arizona is 99.99% God fearing right wing extremist pro-birther Repubs who shudder at the thought of a sperm or an egg being spent uselessly no matter how many knuckle babies are wasted in the process, or precious eggs get squandered in the fallopian tubes of Fate. The money still gets sent and the Abort-O-Matics get built. The billion dollars gets counted against those poor Arizonians.
If the Abort-O-Matics are built in Arizona by people who were paid to build it, then the Arizonians got those dollars, correct?


I don't know how they count those dollars, however. If they paid people in Wisconsin to make the devices that got shipped to Arizona, then how do they do the math on that? No clue.
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Old 10-01-2013, 02:59 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Detoxing View Post
Is this gonna delay Welfare and Social Security?

I hope so because i have some shopping to do and shopping on welfare check day is a nightmare.

Social Security is an independent agency, like the Post Office, so I very much doubt it will be affected at all.
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Old 10-01-2013, 03:06 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Can you give just one example of how federal dollars flowing into a state does not benefit the citizens of that state, primarily?

I'm frankly not going to bother to parse the data more thoroughly. It seems fairly clear to me that if $2.08 of federal dollars goes into North Dakota -- whether to park rangers living there, or for highway repair dollars, or supplemtnal funding for schools, or social security income, then it primarily benefits North Dakotans.
In many cases it does in others it does not. The point you are making is a gross oversimplification of things. You understand that but their are plenty who do not and that is why I have a problem with your presentation of this mish mash of data.

The biggest issue is the relative "value" of the dollars spent. This study doesn't take that into account. There is MASSIVE difference in $100 spent on entitlements in North Dakota and $100 spend at Minot AFB. That $100 at Minot AFB might only equal a true value of $.50 when compared to the value of the entitlement dollars.

So pushing dollar amounts that have no relative value assigned is basically meaningless. I don't pretend to know how a proper study would shake out in that respect, could have similar results. I only know that I read the methodology on THIS study and it is severely flawed if you attempt to use or present the data in the manner I have so often seen it used.
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Old 10-01-2013, 03:08 PM   #113
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Social Security is an independent agency, like the Post Office, so I very much doubt it will be affected at all.
SS might be ever so slightly better off than they'd otherwise be. The crew that raids the fictitious trust fund regularly in order to obtain operating capital was told to stay home today.
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Old 10-01-2013, 03:13 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by frazod View Post
Do we have any furloughed government workers posting?

Anybody sucking a living off the government teat worried about that next welfare check rolling in?

Anybody having to rethink that scheduled trip to the Grand Canyon next week?

Let's hear about it.
To my knowledge a shutdown doesn't affect all welfare checks. Certain benefits and programs, like SS and Veterans benefits get permanent funding. Unemployment benefits and food stamps were already funded in earlier bills. Housing funding has enough to last until the end of October. Then the govt workers who are considered non-essential are affected. Military and national security is not.
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Old 10-01-2013, 03:15 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
In many cases it does in others it does not. The point you are making is a gross oversimplification of things. You understand that but their are plenty who do not and that is why I have a problem with your presentation of this mish mash of data.

The biggest issue is the relative "value" of the dollars spent. This study doesn't take that into account. There is MASSIVE difference in $100 spent on entitlements in North Dakota and $100 spend at Minot AFB. That $100 at Minot AFB might only equal a true value of $.50 when compared to the value of the entitlement dollars.

So pushing dollar amounts that have no relative value assigned is basically meaningless. I don't pretend to know how a proper study would shake out in that respect, could have similar results. I only know that I read the methodology on THIS study and it is severely flawed if you attempt to use or present the data in the manner I have so often seen it used.

Ok, I will take your word for it. I certainly acknowledge that if you pay an air force pilot at Minot AFB $100, then he may spend only a fraction of that within the state of ND. I also understand that if you park a $100 million jet plane at Minot, that isn't $100 million of "benefit" that North Dakotans receive.

I would have thought that the study would try to adjust for such things. An estimated percentage of transient military personnel's wages based on the state, perhaps, and the $100 million being "given" to the states where the plane was built, rather than where it was parked.

I haven't analyzed the data, and freely admit I never will, so based on your statement that you have and that the methodology is deeply flawed, I will stop referring to the study.

Sorry I missed your multiple posts on this before.
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Old 10-01-2013, 03:15 PM   #116
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SS might be ever so slightly better off than they'd otherwise be. The crew that raids the fictitious trust fund regularly in order to obtain operating capital was told to stay home today.
I would think they're considered "essential workers" since SS gets permanent funding. So this shutdown doesn't affect SS.
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Old 10-01-2013, 03:17 PM   #117
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SS might be ever so slightly better off than they'd otherwise be. The crew that raids the fictitious trust fund regularly in order to obtain operating capital was told to stay home today.

SS is now net deficit, so it no longer gets "raided" by the treasury anyway. Now, treasury is "repaying" the many years of loans it got from SS.

In any event, no matter what games they want to play, there is only one pocket to hit at the end of the day -- ours.
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Old 10-01-2013, 03:28 PM   #118
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My bad. AFAIK it DOES include military spending. I was trying to make a different point, but the context led to confusion, which was definitely my bad.
Well...shit. That does open a whole extra can of worms. Meh. This process is already complicated and confusing. I don't think we can come to any kind of conclusion here. The data you posted is interesting, but I can't interpret in any meaningful way as far as D's versus R's.
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Old 10-01-2013, 03:56 PM   #119
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To my knowledge a shutdown doesn't affect all welfare checks. Certain benefits and programs, like SS and Veterans benefits get permanent funding. Unemployment benefits and food stamps were already funded in earlier bills. Housing funding has enough to last until the end of October. Then the govt workers who are considered non-essential are affected. Military and national security is not.
I know. I was just trollin for 'giners.
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Old 10-01-2013, 04:59 PM   #120
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Congress could OK to fund JUST the military tomorrow and it would be a good thing.

Local communities can take the money that usually goes to the fed and take care of those who need the help.
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