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Old 10-02-2013, 06:04 PM  
petegz28 petegz28 is offline
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Obama\Dems won't negotiate on CR or Debt Ceiling

That's the report after the leaders all met this afternoon. The President and the Dems stated not only will they not negotiate on the current CR they will not negotiate on the Debt Ceiling either.
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Old 10-02-2013, 10:27 PM   #61
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y'all can play teams if you want I jusr think its unfortunate people are being held hostage by a shitty bill literally nobody likes.
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Old 10-02-2013, 11:07 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by FD View Post
I thought it was clear from our last exchange, but you are completely wrong on this. The only way to avoid default is if the Congress passes a bill raising the debt ceiling. The executive branch has no legal or practical way to avoid default without that happenimg.
No I am not. If we are talking about actual DEBT default, we can continue to pay it. We have something like 6 times the monthly revenue compared to debt interest. Saying the executive has no legal means is ridiculous. Most agree that they in fact do but yes it would be a nightmare. The TRUE nightmare is (as you pointed out) the Treasury system for outlays. I honestly can't speak to what it would take to make this workable on that end. I doubt you can either. (unless of course you are a programmer for the Treasury in which case I'd love more detail because I can think of a half dozen emergency "fixes" that could be implemented to band aid a system like this... such as taking a snapshot of the current system then zeroing out the payments that will need to be deferred such that everything falls within the revenue stream but that's purely guesswork since I have no clue) Saying it is "impossible" out of hand is as ridiculous as me saying I am 100% sure it is technically possible. BUT if you lay aside the possible technical issue, we have the revenue to avoid true default UNLESS the decision is made by the Executive not to even try.

If instead you are talking about default to include all obligated debts (SS for example) then yet again we have enough revenue to get by but you'd have to pretty much GUT everything else (mostly defense). I agree that it isn't at all desirable or practical, but saying it can't be done is flat out wrong.
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Old 10-03-2013, 05:47 AM   #63
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How about if Obama came out tomorrow and offered to reduce the first year mandate penalty for not getting insurance from $95 to $47.50? Compromise right? Every one cool and we can go back to our lives?
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Old 10-03-2013, 05:56 AM   #64
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How about if both sides drop this partisan bullshit, we get some strong leadership from the top, and the government places the good of the country in front of their self interests?
I am sick of this shit. Shame on both sides of the aisle and our supposed Commander in Chief.
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Old 10-03-2013, 05:59 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
It's always been negotiable. That's why debt limit increases don't happen automatically.

I'd be a little more careful throwing out the bizzaro world flag.
Its been negotiated on a fiscal basis, cutting spending to balance the books. Never negotiated on an unrelated policy demand.
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Old 10-03-2013, 07:15 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by banyon View Post
Its been negotiated on a fiscal basis, cutting spending to balance the books. Never negotiated on an unrelated policy demand.
Except in this case its backwards, Obama is saying no spending cut negotiations until after the debt limit is increased. So anyway you look at it he's just as responsible for any dreaded 'default' as republicans.
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Old 10-03-2013, 07:16 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
Please provide the links to where the debt ceiling has always been held up until one party got what they wanted?
You don't need a link. You're witnessing it right now in Obama.
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Old 10-03-2013, 07:37 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
No I am not. If we are talking about actual DEBT default, we can continue to pay it. We have something like 6 times the monthly revenue compared to debt interest. Saying the executive has no legal means is ridiculous. Most agree that they in fact do but yes it would be a nightmare. The TRUE nightmare is (as you pointed out) the Treasury system for outlays. I honestly can't speak to what it would take to make this workable on that end. I doubt you can either. (unless of course you are a programmer for the Treasury in which case I'd love more detail because I can think of a half dozen emergency "fixes" that could be implemented to band aid a system like this... such as taking a snapshot of the current system then zeroing out the payments that will need to be deferred such that everything falls within the revenue stream but that's purely guesswork since I have no clue) Saying it is "impossible" out of hand is as ridiculous as me saying I am 100% sure it is technically possible. BUT if you lay aside the possible technical issue, we have the revenue to avoid true default UNLESS the decision is made by the Executive not to even try.

If instead you are talking about default to include all obligated debts (SS for example) then yet again we have enough revenue to get by but you'd have to pretty much GUT everything else (mostly defense). I agree that it isn't at all desirable or practical, but saying it can't be done is flat out wrong.
You are living in a fantasy world. There is a reason every former Treasury Secretary has said it is impossible to prioritize payments. Current and former Treasury staffers have made this very clear, there is no practical mechanism to prioritize. Moreover, even if it were possible, the day to day fluctuations in cash and obligations would inevitable cause a default.


Quote:
The Treasury’s systems do not clearly mark what scheduled payments are for what reasons, so it is impractical to try to prioritize payments. And clearing systems like Fedwire do not allow defaulted securities to flow, so the system would seize. In order for the clearing systems to work, the Treasury would need to notify the market of a default almost a day before the default happened (to give everyone time to modify payments), and that is not going to happen because the Treasury will not want to declare default while Congress still has time to pass a bill.

Also the Fed does not take defaulted securities as collateral at the discount window, even if those securities are still trading at par.

No Cross Default on Treasuries

Note that there is no cross default on Treasuries, so in 2011 we saw securities with mid-August coupon payments cheapen to other coupons. This time around, we would expect Treasuries with late October coupons (late Oct or April maturities) cheapen to other issues.
http://discussions.ft.com/longroom/t...ns?posted=true

This is all beside the point, though. Even if they could prioritize, not raising the debt limit would still constitute a form of default as the US government would have to break its legal obligations, not paying contractors for services rendered, not paying SS recipients the benefits they are owed, etc. And that form of default would have similar repercussions in financial markets.

And even if THAT weren't true. It would still cause a massive recession as almost $1 trillion disappeared from the economy. The ONLY way to prevent this is if Congress does its job and raises or abolishes the debt ceiling. There is absolutely no way for the executive branch to avoid it.
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Last edited by FD; 10-03-2013 at 08:00 AM..
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Old 10-03-2013, 07:45 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
How about if Obama came out tomorrow and offered to reduce the first year mandate penalty for not getting insurance from $95 to $47.50? Compromise right? Every one cool and we can go back to our lives?
I say start at $1 off and go as high as three fitty.
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Old 10-03-2013, 07:46 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Cave Johnson View Post
I say start at $1 off and go as high as three fitty.
Dollars or Yen?
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Old 10-03-2013, 07:47 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
hmmm, had Obama had his way in 2006.......


Only someone with your limited intellect would equate a protest vote to an actual government shutdown over policy disagreements.
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Old 10-03-2013, 07:48 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by vailpass View Post
Dollars or Yen?
The $ is dollars, Vail. Just like the ones you stuff in your gf's g-string.
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Old 10-03-2013, 08:00 AM   #73
petegz28 petegz28 is offline
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Originally Posted by Cave Johnson View Post
Only someone with your limited intellect would equate a protest vote to an actual government shutdown over policy disagreements.
Excuses, excuses
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Old 10-03-2013, 08:02 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Cave Johnson View Post
The $ is dollars, Vail. Just like the ones you stuff in your gf's g-string.
Hah! Was just poking around to honor our primary lenders. (And she wears a physician's coat on top of that g-string, doesn't need my money)
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Old 10-03-2013, 08:09 AM   #75
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Hah! Was just poking around to honor our primary lenders. (And she wears a physician's coat on top of that g-string, doesn't need my money)
Then the currency you were looking for is the yuan.

And congrats on your (probably ill gotten and short lived) good fortune.
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