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Old 10-06-2013, 03:45 AM  
AussieChiefsFan AussieChiefsFan is offline
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Why not ObamaCare?

Now, I've been meaning to ask a couple questions for a few days now, especially since the government shutdown.

To me, the whole government shutdown thing seems like the most childish shit on the part of the Republicans. It really seems like it's a "If I can't have what I want, neither can you" situation, like the Republicans care more about their own agenda than what is in the best interest of the people of the US.

The main question I have though, is, what is so bad about ObamaCare? Now, admittedly, I don't know the ins and outs of ObamaCare, but is it not just health-care? If it is, I seriously do not understand what the problem is. It works for so many countries in which healthcare is already in place.

If ObamaCare is not simply just health-care then please educate me as to what the main differences are, and why it is such a "problem".

Thanks
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Old 10-06-2013, 09:54 AM   #46
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Mainly because we needed a plan that addressed the exponentially increasing rate of health care costs, and obamacare did nothing to address that. It just requires everyone to buy a product from the healh insurance companies. So its basically the largest corporate welfare handout ever.
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Old 10-06-2013, 09:55 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by headsnap View Post
The Democrats are the ones that are saying 'my way or the highway'... no negotiations at all.
Come on man, get real.

Starting point.......we get rid of your Presidency's signature achievement. We will fund the government for a few more weeks.

What would your opinion if tomorrow the democrats tried the same starting position negotiation tactic. Either you pass immigration reform or we shut down the government? Either you roll back the top tax rates to what the were under Eisenhower (80%) or we don't raise the debt ceiling? And.............. you get the idea.
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Old 10-06-2013, 09:55 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banyon View Post
Mainly because we needed a plan that addressed the exponentially increasing rate of health care costs, and obamacare did nothing to address that. It just requires everyone to buy a product from the healh insurance companies. So its basically the largest corporate welfare handout ever.
Yes sir, thank you.
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Old 10-06-2013, 09:57 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN View Post
Yes sir, thank you.
Well i guess we had to agree at some point, right?
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Old 10-06-2013, 09:57 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by headsnap View Post
The Republican's position has moved, the Democrats are the ones that aren't budging...
The Republican position was disastrously handled prior to Obamacare passing. And disastrously handled until just recently, when it was way too late. During this time, the Republicans built an image of saying "no" to everything the Democrats proposed, so nobody took their objections to Obamacare seriously.

So while the new direction of the Republican party is right in principle, the execution is a complete shit show. And the worst part is, a lot of Republicans are declaring victory while their brand is losing big time steam with independents and moderates. They should have chosen their battles, came to the table with serious counter-proposals, and at least attempted a compromise. They didn't. Obamacare sucks and the Republicans should blame themselves for that.
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Old 10-06-2013, 09:59 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banyon View Post
Well i guess we had to agree at some point, right?
I'm only agreeing because it's 100% true, I've stated that from day one.
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Old 10-06-2013, 10:04 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
The Republican position was disastrously handled prior to Obamacare passing. And disastrously handled until just recently, when it was way too late. During this time, the Republicans built an image of saying "no" to everything the Democrats proposed, so nobody took their objections to Obamacare seriously.

So while the new direction of the Republican party is right in principle, the execution is a complete shit show. And the worst part is, a lot of Republicans are declaring victory while their brand is losing big time steam with independents and moderates. They should have chosen their battles, came to the table with serious counter-proposals, and at least attempted a compromise. They didn't. Obamacare sucks and the Republicans should blame themselves for that.
I agree with this too. They never created a viable alternative. Just muttered "tort reform" occasionally, or "buy across state lines", but nothing significant and game-changing. Both parties right now have abysmal leadership.
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Old 10-06-2013, 10:05 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieChiefsFan View Post
To me, the whole government shutdown thing seems like the most childish shit on the part of the Republicans. It really seems like it's a "If I can't have what I want, neither can you" situation, like the Republicans care more about their own agenda than what is in the best interest of the people of the US.
This is your first problem. If this were actually true, Republicans wouldn't have passed a continuing resolution that fully funded every aspect of government (including much that they don't agree with) while only including minor delays and tweaks to Obamacare that bring the individual mandate in line with the corporate mandate and put Congressional staff on the same playing field as the public. It was Obama and democrats who shut down government and decided that no one would have anything if they couldn't get what they wanted.
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Old 10-06-2013, 10:17 AM   #54
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To answer your question, Obamacare has at least two obvious flaws:

1) It fails to address the most important healthcare issue. It does nothing to deal with the out of control increase in the cost of healthcare services which indirectly threaten to bankrupt our country.

2) It was advertised as a program that would reduce the deficit, but now it is clear that it will increase the deficit substantially. This is a direct contribution to the threat of bankruptcy.

An additional problem that a liberal might not recognize as a problem is that Obamacare puts the government in the position of establishing minimal levels of coverage. Political pressure will naturally inflate this minimum to include services that ought to be considered elective. Luxuries rather than necessities. And of course, there will be the controversies involving services that impact consciences like abortion.

A corollary of that problem is that government will also be in the position of determining what level of life sustaining coverage is acceptable. When government takes control of coverage options and then they finally get serious about addressing costs, that's when government death panels become reality.
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Old 10-06-2013, 10:35 AM   #55
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Biggest reasons I'm against obamacare?

1. It ignores the real reasons why healthcare is not affordable.

2. Aside from national defense, I don't believe the US government can do anything better than the private sector. This system will be rife with corruption, more expensive, and less efficient/proficient.
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Old 10-06-2013, 10:56 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
To answer your question, Obamacare has at least two obvious flaws:

1) It fails to address the most important healthcare issue. It does nothing to deal with the out of control increase in the cost of healthcare services which indirectly threaten to bankrupt our country.

2) It was advertised as a program that would reduce the deficit, but now it is clear that it will increase the deficit substantially. This is a direct contribution to the threat of bankruptcy.

An additional problem that a liberal might not recognize as a problem is that Obamacare puts the government in the position of establishing minimal levels of coverage. Political pressure will naturally inflate this minimum to include services that ought to be considered elective. Luxuries rather than necessities. And of course, there will be the controversies involving services that impact consciences like abortion.

A corollary of that problem is that government will also be in the position of determining what level of life sustaining coverage is acceptable. When government takes control of coverage options and then they finally get serious about addressing costs, that's when government death panels become reality.
There are thing hidden in there that are actually very good. Forcing health care to move to electronic records and a lot of other measures that should make healthcare more operationally efficient. And even though I'm not a big fan of the individual mandate, that would reduce premiums significantly.

It is absolutely ridiculous that Obama pursued something this far-reaching and took the unbelievably arrogant position that the public sector could do this more efficiently, as opposed to just enabling the private sector to come to this kind of a solution.
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Old 10-06-2013, 11:02 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
To answer your question, Obamacare has at least two obvious flaws:

1) It fails to address the most important healthcare issue. It does nothing to deal with the out of control increase in the cost of healthcare services which indirectly threaten to bankrupt our country.

2) It was advertised as a program that would reduce the deficit, but now it is clear that it will increase the deficit substantially. This is a direct contribution to the threat of bankruptcy.

An additional problem that a liberal might not recognize as a problem is that Obamacare puts the government in the position of establishing minimal levels of coverage. Political pressure will naturally inflate this minimum to include services that ought to be considered elective. Luxuries rather than necessities. And of course, there will be the controversies involving services that impact consciences like abortion.

A corollary of that problem is that government will also be in the position of determining what level of life sustaining coverage is acceptable. When government takes control of coverage options and then they finally get serious about addressing costs, that's when government death panels become reality.
I also agree with patteeu's reason #2. The CBO estimate that claimed this was deficit neutral, but in hindsight appears to have included some grossly rosy projections and assumptions.
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Old 10-06-2013, 05:14 PM   #58
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The unAffordable Healthcare Act has four plans:
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Old 10-06-2013, 05:34 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by headsnap View Post
like a petulant child? to make the shutdown more painful?



NO!!!
To increase the profit margin for a corporation by 2 pennies?

YES!!!
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Old 10-06-2013, 08:05 PM
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Old 10-07-2013, 12:19 AM   #60
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Who wouldn't want healthcare from a bill passed
in the dark of night Not sure if that is true, but I am sure it isn't relevant
by a simple majority Not true.
that not one of them read Talking point
that's 2,700 pages long What the 'correct' # of pages?
written by the insurance lobbyists Lobbyist aren't unique to this law
with an additional 10,000 pages of regulations I don't know
where the people who passed it and signed it into law are exempt HUGE myth, simply not true
but the citizens are forced to buy under penalty of law True, but it's pretty weak penalty
that doesn't keep healthcare costs down like politicians promised That remains to be seen, but costs have always risen and have risen sharply for 20+ years. Slowing the increase would be a success.
administered by the IRS In part, but so? Someone has to do it.
creating an additional 16,000 jobs for them I don't know
but not one job created for any doctor or nurse You don't know
where healthcare will be rationed by a panel of bureaucrats (aka "death panel") If you are talking about a panel of insurance bureaucrats, then I guess--but that's just like it always has been
with a president who unilaterally changes the law whenever he wants? Silly talking point
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