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Old 10-06-2013, 12:07 PM  
banyon banyon is offline
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John Kerry ceding away US sovereignty to global corporations

While the right hand is distracting us with the shiny object of government shutdown, here's what the left hand is doing:

As the federal government shutdown continues, Secretary of State John Kerry heads to Asia for secret talks on a sweeping new trade deal, the Trans-Pacific Partnership. The TPP is often referred to by critics as "NAFTA on steroids," and would establish a free trade zone that would stretch from Vietnam to Chile, encompassing 800 million people — about a third of world trade and nearly 40 percent of the global economy. While the text of the treaty has been largely negotiated behind closed doors and, until June, kept secret from Congress, more than 600 corporate advisers reportedly have access to the measure, including employees of Halliburton and Monsanto. "This is not mainly about trade," says Lori Wallach, director of Public Citizen’s Global Trade Watch. "It is a corporate Trojan horse. The agreement has 29 chapters, and only five of them have to do with trade. The other 24 chapters either handcuff our domestic governments, limiting food safety, environmental standards, financial regulation, energy and climate policy, or establishing new powers for corporations."

TRANSCRIPT

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: President Obama announced this week that the U.S. government shutdown would delay his upcoming four-country trip to Asia, but that negotiations on a controversial new trade agreement he hopes to sign by the end of the year will continue to move forward. Obama called the Philippines president Tuesday night to say he would miss his visit, and a spokesperson shared the news with reporters Thursday.

RICKY CARANDANG: Secretary Kerry ... he will go in place of President Obama. President Obama personally called President Aquino to tell him—to explain to him why he could not make the visit.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: John Kerry will attend Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation meetings next week in Indonesia, where he’ll push for the completion of a sweeping new trade deal called the Trans-Pacific Partnership, the largest international trade deal since the creation of the World Trade Organization in 1995. The administration hopes to pass the measure through Congress by the end of the year using its Fast Track authority to limit lawmakers to an up-or-down vote.

AMY GOODMAN: The TPP is often referred to by critics as "NAFTA on steroids" and would establishing a free trade zone that would stretch from Vietnam to Chile, encompass 800 million people—about a third of world trade and nearly 40 percent of the global economy. While the text of the treaty has been largely negotiated behind closed doors, more than 600 corporate advisers reportedly have access to the measure, including employees of Halliburton and Monsanto.

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/10/...e_obama_pushes

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Old 01-31-2014, 05:36 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Maybe the subject is too complex for me and/or the article isn't enough to bring me up to speed, but I'm having trouble being too worked up here. I'm sure there are some parts of the agreement that I wouldn't like, but in general, a trade agreement with Pacific Rim nations (excluding China) sounds like a good thing to me. But, of course, the devil is in the details so I reserve the right to be outraged over it at some point in the future.
Well, I'm certainly not even close to an expert Pat, but in general it sounds like an even bigger NAFTA... ship off the jobs that built our strong American middle class to nations where the people will work for $3 an hour.

Its great for the bottom line of CEO's and shareholders, but on the main they don't turn around and create new jobs with all of the money they just saved or made, it doesn't "trickle down"... in essence, it enriches other nations while whittling away at ours with an axe.

That's my laymans view anyway.
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Old 01-31-2014, 05:50 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by scott free View Post
Well, I'm certainly not even close to an expert Pat, but in general it sounds like an even bigger NAFTA... ship off the jobs that built our strong American middle class to nations where the people will work for $3 an hour.

Its great for the bottom line of CEO's and shareholders, but on the main they don't turn around and create new jobs with all of the money they just saved or made, it doesn't "trickle down"... in essence, it enriches other nations while whittling away at ours with an axe.

That's my laymans view anyway.
Those jobs are going away anyway, IMO. We can't prop our economy up with protectionism over the long run. Like NAFTA, I expect this trade agreement to increase per capita income in the US, not decrease it. But you're right that the benefits won't be uniform across our population.

My biggest concern with these types of deals are the rules we agree to be bound by and the trade organizations that are set up to enforce them (i.e. the sovereignty issue banyon mentions). I don't know enough about that to know whether I should be upset.
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Old 01-31-2014, 05:52 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Maybe the subject is too complex for me and/or the article isn't enough to bring me up to speed, but I'm having trouble being too worked up here. I'm sure there are some parts of the agreement that I wouldn't like, but in general, a trade agreement with Pacific Rim nations (excluding China) sounds like a good thing to me. But, of course, the devil is in the details so I reserve the right to be outraged over it at some point in the future.
I think you seem to be missing the point. Didn't you read the thread title? JOHN KERRY is involved. No need to wait--be outraged now!

Plus, he's ceding away US sovereignty to global corporations. That sound good to you?
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Old 01-31-2014, 05:59 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
I think you seem to be missing the point. Didn't you read the thread title? JOHN KERRY is involved. No need to wait--be outraged now!

Plus, he's ceding away US sovereignty to global corporations. That sound good to you?
The fact that the Obama administration is leading our negotiating team is certainly reason for concern. I'm well aware of the possibility that we could wake up one morning and find out that we've sold off all of our territory west of the Mississippi to Malaysia in return for some beads in a reverse Louisiana purchase/Manhattan gambit.
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Old 01-31-2014, 06:01 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Those jobs are going away anyway, IMO. We can't prop our economy up with protectionism over the long run. Like NAFTA, I expect this trade agreement to increase per capita income in the US, not decrease it. But you're right that the benefits won't be uniform across our population.

My biggest concern with these types of deals are the rules we agree to be bound by and the trade organizations that are set up to enforce them (i.e. the sovereignty issue banyon mentions). I don't know enough about that to know whether I should be upset.
Those jobs are going away precisely because our government is not only allowing them to, but they're actively encouraging them to be shipped off with these kinds of deals.

What good is per capita income, how does it actually strengthen this country, when it all goes to a very small percentage of people who reinvest little to none of it back into their own country? Again, its easy for me to get out of my depth here, but what about this nation does it strengthen?

How does all of that money sitting in huge, global economy banks help strengthen our infrastructure, military, quality of life for working citizens? Not trying to be smart either, I just don't see how that accumulation at the top helps anyone but the top... its not about "war on the rich", its about why not invest in your own country, IMO.

The sovereignity thing is even more abstract at this time, but if this keeps going like it is, it'll all be very clear to us soon enough.
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Old 01-31-2014, 06:07 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by scott free View Post
Those jobs are going away precisely because our government is not only allowing them to, but they're actively encouraging them to be shipped off with these kinds of deals.
They're going away anyway. What encouragement are you talking about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scott free View Post
What good is per capita income, how does it actually strengthen this country, when it all goes to a very small percentage of people who reinvest little to none of it back into their own country? Again, its easy for me to get out of my depth here, but what about this nation does it strengthen?

How does all of that money sitting in huge, global economy banks help strengthen our infrastructure, military, quality of life for working citizens? Not trying to be smart either, I just don't see how that accumulation at the top helps anyone but the top... its not about "war on the rich", its about why not invest in your own country, IMO.
I don't know that your belief is accurate.

Growing the per capita income pie is generally better than fighting over the scraps of a shrinking pie.

Transitioning our economy to one built on exports rather than one driven by domestic consumption is essential for our future well-being. These trade deals improve our ability to export.
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Old 01-31-2014, 06:26 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
They're going away anyway. What encouragement are you talking about?



I don't know that your belief is accurate.

Growing the per capita income pie is generally better than fighting over the scraps of a shrinking pie.

Transitioning our economy to one built on exports rather than one driven by domestic consumption is essential for our future well-being. These trade deals improve our ability to export.
Don't get all defensive on me, as I've alluded to, I'm not speaking from any precise knowledge, just a laymans understanding of global economics... but isn't the very purpose of these deals to make it easier and more profitable for companies to send their jobs away to where their products/services can be made/given much cheaper?

To make it easier for these places to make more money? I'm half a retard on these subjects, but I don't think I'm too far outta bounds here.

The second bit raises a conundrum for me, how can we begin to start basing our economy on exports when we send so many manufacturing jobs overseas? Yes, its being made by an American company, but those wages are being spent by foreigners in a foreign land... which brings us back to companies/CEO's/shareholders making plenty, but its hard to see how that strengthens our country at the roots level.

Do we really tax these places so heavily that it justifies taking those jobs from Americans?

When you're paying billions in wages to India, that money isn't being spent, isn't helping this nation... its helping CEO's and shareholders who aren't reinvesting much into their own country... it seems to be a vicious circle.
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Old 01-31-2014, 06:28 PM   #38
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BTW - it would sure be nice if one of you guys who're far more knowledgable than I would chime in here to clarify in specific terms what I'm trying to say, instead of sitting back and waiting for this global economy amateur to put his foot in his mouth and have a good laugh.
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Old 01-31-2014, 06:36 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
The fact that the Obama administration is leading our negotiating team is certainly reason for concern. I'm well aware of the possibility that we could wake up one morning and find out that we've sold off all of our territory west of the Mississippi to Malaysia in return for some beads in a reverse Louisiana purchase/Manhattan gambit.
Funny. But you must not be too concerned if you're willing to reserve your right to be outraged and not exercising it now. You're not usually one to wait.
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Old 01-31-2014, 06:41 PM   #40
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Funny. But you must not be too concerned if you're willing to reserve your right to be outraged and not exercising it now. You're not usually one to wait.
Id enjoy knowing your POV on the issue?
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Old 01-31-2014, 06:49 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by scott free View Post
Don't get all defensive on me, as I've alluded to, I'm not speaking from any precise knowledge, just a laymans understanding of global economics... but isn't the very purpose of these deals to make it easier and more profitable for companies to send their jobs away to where their products/services can be made/given much cheaper?

To make it easier for these places to make more money? I'm half a retard on these subjects, but I don't think I'm too far outta bounds here.
I'm not getting defensive at all.

The purpose of these deals is to reduce the barriers to trade. Part of that means making it easier for businesses to operate throughout the trade region, wherever economics (as opposed to government rules and restrictions) make the most sense. The pure free trade libertarians aren't happy with them because they create trading rules, but the rules are supposed to minimize the trade friction created by ad hoc protectionism. Unfortunately, theory and reality are often not the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scott free View Post
The second bit raises a conundrum for me, how can we begin to start basing our economy on exports when we send so many manufacturing jobs overseas? Yes, its being made by an American company, but those wages are being spent by foreigners in a foreign land... which brings us back to companies/CEO's/shareholders making plenty, but its hard to see how that strengthens our country at the roots level.

Do we really tax these places so heavily that it justifies taking those jobs from Americans?

When you're paying billions in wages to India, that money isn't being spent, isn't helping this nation... its helping CEO's and shareholders who aren't reinvesting much into their own country... it seems to be a vicious circle.
In order to shift our economic focus to exports, we need to change the things we can change to make our business/manufacturing climate more attractive so that fewer firms will leave/offshore and so that more foreign companies will relocate here. Minimizing business taxation, eliminating unnecessary regulations, encouraging production relative to consumption and maximizing productivity (both in terms of labor and infrastructure) are some of the things we should be working hard to achieve. Making poverty comfortable and enhancing the spending power of our consumption classes are counter-productive.

BTW, to the extent that citizens of these trading partners see their ability to consume increased, the markets for our exports grow, so that part isn't all bad.
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Old 01-31-2014, 06:50 PM   #42
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Funny. But you must not be too concerned if you're willing to reserve your right to be outraged and not exercising it now. You're not usually one to wait.
I think I said that in my first post.

I don't need to wait when I know there's something to be concerned about.
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Old 01-31-2014, 06:52 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by scott free View Post
BTW - it would sure be nice if one of you guys who're far more knowledgable than I would chime in here to clarify in specific terms what I'm trying to say, instead of sitting back and waiting for this global economy amateur to put his foot in his mouth and have a good laugh.
Pssst... I doubt that we have many foreign trade agreement experts here.
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Old 01-31-2014, 07:07 PM   #44
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Id enjoy knowing your POV on the issue?
I'm assuming the thread title is hyperbolic BS.

On the rest of the details, I don't feel like I know enough about it to give a decent POV.
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Old 01-31-2014, 07:08 PM   #45
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I'm assuming the thread title is hyperbolic BS.

On the rest of the details, I don't feel like I know enough about it to give a decent POV.
So, why are you here?
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