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Old 10-07-2013, 10:00 AM  
pr_capone pr_capone is offline
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Who Shut Down the Government?

I've been hearing and reading a lot of blame shifting from one party to another. Some screaming that we are going to default on out debts if this keeps up. Others pointing out that Obamacare is already law and what the House is doing is wrong.

I found an article written by Thomas Sowell that I found to be very informative on the subject of the government shut down.

Quote:
Even when it comes to something as basic, and apparently as simple and straightforward, as the question of who shut down the federal government, there are diametrically opposite answers, depending on whether you talk to Democrats or to Republicans.

There is really nothing complicated about the facts. The Republican-controlled House of Representatives voted all the money required to keep all government activities going except for ObamaCare.

This is not a matter of opinion. You can check the Congressional Record.

As for the House of Representatives' right to grant or withhold money, that is not a matter of opinion either. You can check the Constitution of the United States. All spending bills must originate in the House of Representatives, which means that Congressmen there have a right to decide whether or not they want to spend money on a particular government activity.

Whether ObamaCare is good, bad or indifferent is a matter of opinion. But it is a matter of fact that members of the House of Representatives have a right to make spending decisions based on their opinion.

ObamaCare is indeed "the law of the land," as its supporters keep saying, and the Supreme Court has upheld its Constitutionality.

But the whole point of having a division of powers within the federal government is that each branch can decide independently what it wants to do or not do, regardless of what the other branches do, when exercising the powers specifically granted to that branch by the Constitution.

The hundreds of thousands of government workers who have been laid off are not idle because the House of Representatives did not vote enough money to pay their salaries or the other expenses of their agencies unless they are in an agency that would administer ObamaCare.

Since we cannot read minds, we cannot say who if anybody "wants to shut down the government." But we do know who had the option to keep the government running and chose not to. The money voted by the House of Representatives covered everything that the government does, except for ObamaCare.

The Senate chose not to vote to authorize that money to be spent, because it did not include money for ObamaCare. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid says that he wants a "clean" bill from the House of Representatives, and some in the media keep repeating the word "clean" like a mantra. But what is unclean about not giving Harry Reid everything he wants?

If Senator Reid and President Obama refuse to accept the money required to run the government, because it leaves out the money they want to run ObamaCare, that is their right. But that is also their responsibility.

You cannot blame other people for not giving you everything you want. And it is a fraud to blame them when you refuse to use the money they did vote, even when it is ample to pay for everything else in the government.

When Barack Obama keeps claiming that it is some new outrage for those who control the money to try to change government policy by granting or withholding money, that is simply a bald-faced lie. You can check the history of other examples of "legislation by appropriation" as it used to be called.

Whether legislation by appropriation is a good idea or a bad idea is a matter of opinion. But whether it is both legal and not unprecedented is a matter of fact.

Perhaps the biggest of the big lies is that the government will not be able to pay what it owes on the national debt, creating a danger of default. Tax money keeps coming into the Treasury during the shutdown, and it vastly exceeds the interest that has to be paid on the national debt.

Even if the debt ceiling is not lifted, that only means that government is not allowed to run up new debt. But that does not mean that it is unable to pay the interest on existing debt.

None of this is rocket science. But unless the Republicans get their side of the story out and articulation has never been their strong suit the lies will win. More important, the whole country will lose.
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Old 10-07-2013, 04:48 PM   #16
Trevo_410 Trevo_410 is offline
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Old 10-07-2013, 05:30 PM   #17
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Harry Reid now has the ball. Who do you think will take the bullet?
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Old 10-07-2013, 06:37 PM   #18
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The way I see it is the Republicans in the House and Senate are using Obamacare in order to facilitate a shutdown. They're telling Obama that his AHCA will have to be delayed/changed in order for them to give him the votes to increase the debt ceiling, and by doing so they will get a little bit of what they want, either through delaying Obamacare until around the time they can possibly take over the Senate next November, or changing what they don't like about it. They're playing Chicken with the President and his legislature, they know he needs to increase the debt ceiling, so they're holding that hostage so they can get something back.

In the end they're assuming many things.

You have to win the Senate next year.
You have to have Obama in a place of desperation.
The majority of American people feel the same as you do.

All of these are really not the case. I think the Republican's aren't winning the trust of the American people by doing this. I think it's the stupidest move at the completely wrong time. If you want to win the Senate next year, and in part, the Presidency two years later, you need to influence the swing state voters, and this isn't the way to do it. It only compounds their cause that they're being "misled" by Cruz's antics and gibberish. Why the **** are they listening to that jock stain anyways? I think that the radical right wingers are influencing the moderate right wingers and its dividing the Republican party up into clicks. A unified Republican party will win back the White House, not this High School bullshit they're pulling now.
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:10 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravedigger View Post
The way I see it is the Republicans in the House and Senate are using Obamacare in order to facilitate a shutdown. They're telling Obama that his AHCA will have to be delayed/changed in order for them to give him the votes to increase the debt ceiling, and by doing so they will get a little bit of what they want, either through delaying Obamacare until around the time they can possibly take over the Senate next November, or changing what they don't like about it. They're playing Chicken with the President and his legislature, they know he needs to increase the debt ceiling, so they're holding that hostage so they can get something back.

In the end they're assuming many things.

You have to win the Senate next year.
You have to have Obama in a place of desperation.
The majority of American people feel the same as you do.

All of these are really not the case. I think the Republican's aren't winning the trust of the American people by doing this. I think it's the stupidest move at the completely wrong time. If you want to win the Senate next year, and in part, the Presidency two years later, you need to influence the swing state voters, and this isn't the way to do it. It only compounds their cause that they're being "misled" by Cruz's antics and gibberish. Why the **** are they listening to that jock stain anyways? I think that the radical right wingers are influencing the moderate right wingers and its dividing the Republican party up into clicks. A unified Republican party will win back the White House, not this High School bullshit they're pulling now.
Well you left no doubt that you're a dumbass...
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:15 PM   #20
HonestChieffan HonestChieffan is offline
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Originally Posted by Xanathol View Post
Well you left no doubt that you're a dumbass...
there ya go...
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:45 PM   #21
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[Referring to private hospital funding alone:] That won't work, it will never be enough, good health care costs a lot of money, remembering 'the distant parts of this province' in which 'assistance cannot be procured, but at an expense that neither [the sick-poor] nor their townships can afford.' ... '[This] seems essential to the true spirit of Christianity, and should be extended to all in general, whether deserving or undeserving, as far as our power reaches.'

In 1751, Franklin's friend, Dr. Thomas Bond, convinced him to champion the building of a public hospital. Through his hard work and political ingenuity, Franklin brought the skeptical legislature to the table, bargaining his way to use public money to build what would become Pennsylvania Hospital. Franklin proposed an institution that would provide --'free of charge'--the finest health care to everybody, 'whether inhabitants of the province or strangers,' even to the 'poor diseased foreigners"' (referring to the immigrants of German stock that the colonials tended to disparage and discriminate). Countering the Assembly's insistence that the hospital be built only with private donations, Franklin made the above statement.

Various articles by Franklin supporting his Appeal for the Hospital in The Pennsylvania Gazette (1751) as quoted in Pulphead: Essays by John Jeremiah Sullivan
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Old 10-07-2013, 09:41 PM   #22
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The article in the OP is idiotic. You can not dryly state what the house did, say they have the legal right to do it, but then somehow conclude they are not at fault for shutting down the government.

The GOP ran on repealing Obamacare, and they got their asses kicked. It is not remotely reasonable to think they have done their duty with the repeal or delay Obamacare CR's. If that is all they are willing to pass, then they should receive, and will receive, the full 100% blame for the shutdown.

If you lose elections, you do not get to implement your policy goals by demanding that we pretend you won "or else". In this country, you actually have to convince the American people to vote for you before you get to advance your agenda.
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Old 10-07-2013, 09:48 PM   #23
HonestChieffan HonestChieffan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
The article in the OP is idiotic. You can not dryly state what the house did, say they have the legal right to do it, but then somehow conclude they are not at fault for shutting down the government.

The GOP ran on repealing Obamacare, and they got their asses kicked. It is not remotely reasonable to think they have done their duty with the repeal or delay Obamacare CR's. If that is all they are willing to pass, then they should receive, and will receive, the full 100% blame for the shutdown.

If you lose elections, you do not get to implement your policy goals by demanding that we pretend you won "or else". In this country, you actually have to convince the American people to vote for you before you get to advance your agenda.
May be nitpicking but didn't dems lose the house soon after they forced ObamaCare on the country?
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Old 10-07-2013, 11:27 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
May be nitpicking but didn't dems lose the house soon after they forced ObamaCare on the country?
Now way. Where did you hear this?
Ask 9 out of 10 LWNJ. & they will tell you.,it is this congress that passed obamacare
True story
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Old 10-08-2013, 12:14 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
The article in the OP is idiotic. You can not dryly state what the house did, say they have the legal right to do it, but then somehow conclude they are not at fault for shutting down the government.

The GOP ran on repealing Obamacare, and they got their asses kicked. It is not remotely reasonable to think they have done their duty with the repeal or delay Obamacare CR's. If that is all they are willing to pass, then they should receive, and will receive, the full 100% blame for the shutdown.

If you lose elections, you do not get to implement your policy goals by demanding that we pretend you won "or else". In this country, you actually have to convince the American people to vote for you before you get to advance your agenda.
The Republicans won the house. They have the purse strings. I'm not sure why you think that means they should just shut up and write checks for Obama to spend, but I'm glad that they're willing to fight over Obamacare and getting the debt in line.

I'm more than happy to punish the Democrats for every single debt ceiling raise from here on out. I'm all for making this a permanent discussion until we get to the point where we're talking about the sizeable gap in the debt ceiling and our spending. That's not going to happen without fighting. I'm all for fighting.
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Old 10-08-2013, 12:17 AM   #26
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Also, the last election wasn't a mandate for Obamacare. You're welcome to think it is, but I reject that premise. The Republicans ran the founder of Obamacare, and they lost huge numbers of principled voters over it. Just because the Republican establishment can't find its ass from a hole in the ground doesn't mean the rest of us should roll over and accept this stuff.

This fight isn't about Ted Cruz. This fight is about the failure of the Republican establishment to lead where its voters want them to lead. Ted Cruz merely filled in a power vacuum that has been left wide open.
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Last edited by Taco John; 10-08-2013 at 12:26 AM..
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Old 10-08-2013, 05:04 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
The article in the OP is idiotic. You can not dryly state what the house did, say they have the legal right to do it, but then somehow conclude they are not at fault for shutting down the government.

The GOP ran on repealing Obamacare, and they got their asses kicked. It is not remotely reasonable to think they have done their duty with the repeal or delay Obamacare CR's. If that is all they are willing to pass, then they should receive, and will receive, the full 100% blame for the shutdown.

If you lose elections, you do not get to implement your policy goals by demanding that we pretend you won "or else". In this country, you actually have to convince the American people to vote for you before you get to advance your agenda.
There isn't a single Republican Congressman or Senator serving in Congress who got their ass kicked in the last election.
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Old 10-08-2013, 05:05 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
May be nitpicking but didn't dems lose the house soon after they forced ObamaCare on the country?
Yes. And then they lost it again in 2012. But alnorth thinks they should get to run the show anyway.
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Old 10-08-2013, 05:31 AM   #29
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At what point do both aisles start working together to do the job they were elected to do? I grow tired of employees not doing their job.
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Old 10-08-2013, 06:52 AM   #30
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The Republicans won the house. They have the purse strings. I'm not sure why you think that means they should just shut up and write checks for Obama to spend, but I'm glad that they're willing to fight over Obamacare and getting the debt in line.

I'm more than happy to punish the Democrats for every single debt ceiling raise from here on out. I'm all for making this a permanent discussion until we get to the point where we're talking about the sizeable gap in the debt ceiling and our spending. That's not going to happen without fighting. I'm all for fighting.
You think Republicans are fighting to keep the debt in line? ...
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