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Old 10-07-2013, 11:00 AM  
pr_capone pr_capone is online now
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Who Shut Down the Government?

I've been hearing and reading a lot of blame shifting from one party to another. Some screaming that we are going to default on out debts if this keeps up. Others pointing out that Obamacare is already law and what the House is doing is wrong.

I found an article written by Thomas Sowell that I found to be very informative on the subject of the government shut down.

Quote:
Even when it comes to something as basic, and apparently as simple and straightforward, as the question of who shut down the federal government, there are diametrically opposite answers, depending on whether you talk to Democrats or to Republicans.

There is really nothing complicated about the facts. The Republican-controlled House of Representatives voted all the money required to keep all government activities going — except for ObamaCare.

This is not a matter of opinion. You can check the Congressional Record.

As for the House of Representatives' right to grant or withhold money, that is not a matter of opinion either. You can check the Constitution of the United States. All spending bills must originate in the House of Representatives, which means that Congressmen there have a right to decide whether or not they want to spend money on a particular government activity.

Whether ObamaCare is good, bad or indifferent is a matter of opinion. But it is a matter of fact that members of the House of Representatives have a right to make spending decisions based on their opinion.

ObamaCare is indeed "the law of the land," as its supporters keep saying, and the Supreme Court has upheld its Constitutionality.

But the whole point of having a division of powers within the federal government is that each branch can decide independently what it wants to do or not do, regardless of what the other branches do, when exercising the powers specifically granted to that branch by the Constitution.

The hundreds of thousands of government workers who have been laid off are not idle because the House of Representatives did not vote enough money to pay their salaries or the other expenses of their agencies — unless they are in an agency that would administer ObamaCare.

Since we cannot read minds, we cannot say who — if anybody — "wants to shut down the government." But we do know who had the option to keep the government running and chose not to. The money voted by the House of Representatives covered everything that the government does, except for ObamaCare.

The Senate chose not to vote to authorize that money to be spent, because it did not include money for ObamaCare. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid says that he wants a "clean" bill from the House of Representatives, and some in the media keep repeating the word "clean" like a mantra. But what is unclean about not giving Harry Reid everything he wants?

If Senator Reid and President Obama refuse to accept the money required to run the government, because it leaves out the money they want to run ObamaCare, that is their right. But that is also their responsibility.

You cannot blame other people for not giving you everything you want. And it is a fraud to blame them when you refuse to use the money they did vote, even when it is ample to pay for everything else in the government.

When Barack Obama keeps claiming that it is some new outrage for those who control the money to try to change government policy by granting or withholding money, that is simply a bald-faced lie. You can check the history of other examples of "legislation by appropriation" as it used to be called.

Whether legislation by appropriation is a good idea or a bad idea is a matter of opinion. But whether it is both legal and not unprecedented is a matter of fact.

Perhaps the biggest of the big lies is that the government will not be able to pay what it owes on the national debt, creating a danger of default. Tax money keeps coming into the Treasury during the shutdown, and it vastly exceeds the interest that has to be paid on the national debt.

Even if the debt ceiling is not lifted, that only means that government is not allowed to run up new debt. But that does not mean that it is unable to pay the interest on existing debt.

None of this is rocket science. But unless the Republicans get their side of the story out — and articulation has never been their strong suit — the lies will win. More important, the whole country will lose.
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Old 10-08-2013, 10:44 AM   #31
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There isn't a single Republican Congressman or Senator serving in Congress who got their ass kicked in the last election.
LOL not sure if on purpose but well played
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Old 10-08-2013, 12:20 PM   #32
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<a href="http://www.latimes.com/opinion/topoftheticket/la-na-tt-republicans-blame-obama-20131006,0,2739790.story" target="_blank"><span style="color<img src="http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/images/smilies/angry.gif" border="0" alt="" title="angry" class="inlineimg" />2262CC">See full story»</span style></a>
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Old 10-08-2013, 12:28 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
<a href="http://www.latimes.com/opinion/topoftheticket/la-na-tt-republicans-blame-obama-20131006,0,2739790.story" target="_blank"><span style="color<img src="http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/images/smilies/angry.gif" border="0" alt="" title="angry" class="inlineimg" />2262CC">See full story»</span style></a>
This is the attitude that causes so much divisiveness...You can't question Obama's performance without being called racist.
It's really bad...
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Old 10-08-2013, 12:46 PM   #34
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It really doesn't matter WHO shut down the government. You can argue for either side, or for both, but that isn't really what matters.

What matters is who will have the political will to continue the shutdown to get their way, and who will be more hurt by it in 2014 if it continues. That is all that really matters.

The rest is just talking points, pretty much.
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Old 10-08-2013, 12:47 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish View Post
You think Republicans are fighting to keep the debt in line? ...

I'd be far more supportive of them if THAT were the case.
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Old 10-08-2013, 12:50 PM   #36
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
It really doesn't matter WHO shut down the government. You can argue for either side, or for both, but that isn't really what matters.

What matters is who will have the political will to continue the shutdown to get their way, and who will be more hurt by it in 2014 if it continues. That is all that really matters.

The rest is just talking points, pretty much.
Politically, the blame game is essential in determining who gets the political advantage out of this.

Whether or not you like that reality, that's the reality.
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Old 10-08-2013, 01:06 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish View Post
You think Republicans are fighting to keep the debt in line? ...
No but Obama sure has spent a helluva lot more. You're not paying attention there.
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Old 10-08-2013, 01:09 PM   #38
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For an unconventional choice, Bernie Sanders blames the Supreme Court for the shutdown.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/10/0...ment-shutdown/

“So what democracy is today in the House of Representatives after Citizens United is about is a handful of billionaires can threaten any member of the House with defeat by pouring unlimited sums of money if they vote in a way that the Koch brothers do not like,” Sanders said.
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Old 10-08-2013, 01:11 PM   #39
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He's not wrong.
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Old 10-08-2013, 01:17 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
The GOP ran on repealing Obamacare, and they got their asses kicked.
That's not true. The Republicans re-established the House in the 2010 Congressional Elections in the largest seat gain since 1948. And more of them were Tea Party Republicans. "It was largest for any midterm election since the 1938 midterm elections.The Republicans gained six seats in the U.S. Senate, expanding its minority."

"The Democratic Party suffered massive defeats in many national and state level elections, with many seats switching to Republican Party control."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...lections,_2010


The Ds won a plurality in the 2012 elections, but Republicans were able to retain a 17-seat majority.


BOTTOM LINE: Americans voted for divided govt and got it.


Quote:
If you lose elections, you do not get to implement your policy goals by demanding that we pretend you won "or else". In this country, you actually have to convince the American people to vote for you before you get to advance your agenda.
"Elections" plural is a generality. Which election for which branch matters here? The Rs didn't win the WH. That branch does not get to craft legislation or originate spending bills. It's disinformation to make this statement. Division of powers is EXACTLY what our govt is made of by design--intentional. It checks power--it doesn't increase it for one branch.

It's NOT supposed to be ONE agenda for ONE branch or just two.
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Old 10-08-2013, 01:25 PM   #41
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The President has ultimate responsibility. To me, he's the father of the country. When your kids don't get along you counsel, you mediate.
And if that doesn't work you knock heads together.
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Old 10-08-2013, 01:26 PM   #42
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<a href="http://www.latimes.com/opinion/topoftheticket/la-na-tt-republicans-blame-obama-20131006,0,2739790.story" target="_blank"><span style="color<img src="http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/images/smilies/angry.gif" border="0" alt="" title="angry" class="inlineimg" />2262CC">See full story»</span style></a>
Oh grow up...
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Old 10-08-2013, 01:28 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by vailpass View Post
The President has ultimate responsibility. To me, he's the father of the country. When your kids don't get along you counsel, you mediate.
And if that doesn't work you knock heads together.

Hard to do when many members of Congress think he's the mortal enemy of the country.

Not unique to Obama, btw. All respect for the institution of the Presidency is gone.
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Old 10-08-2013, 02:09 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Hard to do when many members of Congress think he's the mortal enemy of the country.

Not unique to Obama, btw. All respect for the institution of the Presidency is gone.
Yes it's hard to do, there probably isn't a more difficult job in the world.
I was raised to understand that if you can't do the job, don't take it.
I expect more out of the leader of the free world, I'm still "buck stops here" guy.
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Old 10-08-2013, 04:37 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banyon View Post
For an unconventional choice, Bernie Sanders blames the Supreme Court for the shutdown.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/10/0...ment-shutdown/

“So what democracy is today in the House of Representatives after Citizens United is about is a handful of billionaires can threaten any member of the House with defeat by pouring unlimited sums of money if they vote in a way that the Koch brothers do not like,” Sanders said.
Somehow, I don't think most Tea Partiers are billionaires. A billionaire benefiting the bill is Democrat Warren Buffet.
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