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Old 10-08-2013, 09:22 PM  
AustinChief AustinChief is online now
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For those claiming it is the GOP to blame for a possible default...

Explain to me why the DEMOCRATS under Reid refused to pass the Full Faith and Credit Act which was passed by the House. And why Obama threatened to veto it if it got to him?

You all seem to whine and cry that we should ALWAYS pay our debts. Well that law makes certain that in a situation like this... we always do.

You can read it here
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-1...113hr807rh.pdf

Pretty simple. If we breach our credit limit we (BY LAW) must pay debts first thereby ensuring we NEVER default.

Let's hear your spin on this one.
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:47 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cave Johnson View Post
You've apparently gone full RWNJ on this issue. Failing to raise the debt ceiling, HB807 or no, would trigger a technical default and then require debt prioritization. Your partisan brain thinks that's not a bad thing, pretty much everyone that's an economist or non-ideologue says otherwise.
Sush., The adults are trying to talk.

Once again it's HR807.. what the **** is HB? House Bitch? House Bellow?

You clearly have no clue what a DEFAULT is. Let me splain. It's quite simple. a DEFAULT is when we fail to pay on our PUBLIC DEBT. What this means, now pay attention this is important, is that if we always pay the interest on our bonds we will never default. HR 807 would make it law that we always pay on our public debt.

Now, explain to the whole class how not raising the debt ceiling would necessitate a default if HR 807 was in effect. (remember we bring in 6 times as much revenue as we need to pay our debt)
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:48 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
My position? I'm actually fairly convinced at this point that you are too ****ing stupid to even grasp my position. (based on the level of willful ignorance you have show so far)

I'll try to help you out and explain it yet again... my position is quite simple. The threat of DEFAULT has come from Obama/Reid all along.

You have disagreed and it seems you disagree because you equate the debt ceiling with a necessary default. Even though the point of this thread is to show that that position holds no water. HR 807 would have made it LAW that regardless of the debt ceiling we would never default.
I understand perfectly what you are saying, I only wonder if you do, too.

Obama is requesting the House raise the debt ceiling (and seemingly making no other demands.) What will he do if he doesn't get his way? Why, he will inflict upon our economy the consequences that follow from not lifting the debt ceiling, namely that some US government obligations cannot be paid.

You have gotten so wrapped up in the technicalities of what is and isnt default you are cornered into an absurd position. But I say keep it up. Embrace the nightmare.
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:50 AM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cave Johnson View Post
His stupid "try out an argument for the pubs" approach has been turned up to 11.
Actually I'm not sure there is anyone at my local who would be dumb enough to attempt the tactics you idiots are trying to cling to. Not sure there is much point anymore. I'm calling this one and putting it in the books. I guess it has been a little educational finding out how completely ignorant some people are of even simple concepts related to this discussion.
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:55 AM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Actually I'm not sure there is anyone at my local who would be dumb enough to attempt the tactics you idiots are trying to cling to. Not sure there is much point anymore. I'm calling this one and putting it in the books. I guess it has been a little educational finding out how completely ignorant some people are of even simple concepts related to this discussion.
I gave you a well sourced article, your response was to call it "over simplistic ignorance". You're right, this is a pointless discussion.
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:56 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FD View Post
I understand perfectly what you are saying, I only wonder if you do, too.

Obama is requesting the House raise the debt ceiling (and seemingly making no other demands.) What will he do if he doesn't get his way? Why, he will inflict upon our economy the consequences that follow from not lifting the debt ceiling, namely that some US government obligations cannot be paid.

You have gotten so wrapped up in the technicalities of what is and isnt default you are cornered into an absurd position. But I say keep it up. Embrace the nightmare.
YAY! More willful ignorance! You simply CAN NOT separate the idea of not raising the debt ceiling with the idea of a necessary default can you? These aren't small "technicalities." There are MASSIVE differences in the implications of failing to pay for XYZ govt program and failing to pay our DEBT. Obama and Reid are threatening a default which is NOT a necessary consequence of a failure to raise the debt ceiling. The fact that they blocked HR 807 shows that they care more about retaining this threat then they do about eliminating a possibility of default.

My position isn't absurd in the least. The fact that you think so shows how ridiculously out of touch from reality you are. You wouldn't happen to be a college professor?
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:57 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cave Johnson View Post
I gave you a well sourced article, your response was to call it "over simplistic ignorance". You're right, this is a pointless discussion.
Right after that comment of mine I then explained why it was wrong. So don't try to misquote me as if that was all I said ****stick.
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:58 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FD View Post
I understand perfectly what you are saying, I only wonder if you do, too.

Obama is requesting the House raise the debt ceiling (and seemingly making no other demands.) What will he do if he doesn't get his way? Why, he will inflict upon our economy the consequences that follow from not lifting the debt ceiling, namely that some US government obligations cannot be paid.

You have gotten so wrapped up in the technicalities of what is and isnt default you are cornered into an absurd position. But I say keep it up. Embrace the nightmare.
Psst, FD..... I'm sure the markets only care whether we're able to pay the interest on our national debt. That's the only part of US economic stability that matters, right???
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:04 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cave Johnson View Post
Psst, FD..... I'm sure the markets only care whether we're able to pay the interest on our national debt. That's the only part of US economic stability that matters, right???
No one is talking about the "markets".. we are talking about threat of DEFAULT. If you want to argue about failure to raise the debt ceiling having an effect on the economy.. start your own damn thread. That's not what this one is about.

If you want to talk about our bond ratings, fine, since that is directly related to how likely a default is. Now please explain to us how HR 807 won't HELP our bond ratings?
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:07 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Right after that comment of mine I then explained why it was wrong. So don't try to misquote me as if that was all I said ****stick.
You, unsourced, said we could retool the Treasury system for outlays. You said it would be "months" before the system was worked out. Basically you're admitting they'll be missed bond payments in the interim.

The last time this happened, in 1979, the cost of borrowing went up 60 basis points (big assumption you know what a basis point is) due to 2 missed payments. What do you think the impact of, possibly, months of missed bond payments would be?

And, ****o, you're ignoring inherently unpredictable early bond redemptions. I don't think you have the foggiest notion about how finance works.
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:11 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
No one is talking about the "markets".. we are talking about threat of DEFAULT. If you want to argue about failure to raise the debt ceiling having an effect on the economy.. start your own damn thread. That's not what this one is about.

If you want to talk about our bond ratings, fine, since that is directly related to how likely a default is. Now please explain to us how HR 807 won't HELP our bond ratings?
The topic veered slightly off your intended purpose? Hope you're not getting the vapors, man.

I think the majority view is that default is a continuum. You're viewing it as a black and white issue.
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:13 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cave Johnson View Post
You've apparently gone full RWNJ on this issue. Failing to raise the debt ceiling, HB807 or no, would trigger a technical default and then require debt prioritization. Your partisan brain thinks that's not a bad thing, pretty much everyone that's an economist or non-ideologue says otherwise.
There will be no default unless Obama and Senate democrats insist on it.
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:13 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
So. you actually don't work in finance right? Because this is some of the most ridiculous tripe I have read on this subject.

Let's address the claim that the bill does nothing to reduce the risk of default. WHAT? Are you ****ing stupid? It does EVERYTHING to reduce the risk of default you idiot. If we cap the debt ceiling AND guarantee debt payments BY LAW then exactly why would we default on debt payments? Do you have any idea how many DECADES it would take for our interest payments to reach a point where they exceed revenues? Hell it may not even be decades it may not even be possible if we capped the debt ceiling now.

Ok, next is how I "define public?" What? you are kinda showing your ass on this. These aren't loosey goosey terms here. Public debt is a clearly defined term. ALL PUBLIC DEBT. This conversation has always been about ALL public debt.
No, I know how the ratings agency actually work. Go look up what they say they do on their on sites and investopedia if you don't believe me.

And no the bill doesn't say all public debt. It says all debt held by the public.

Quote:
OBLIGATIONS DESCRIBED.—For purposes of this
13 subsection, obligations described in this subsection are obli-
14 gations which are—
15 (1) held by the public, or
16 (2) held by the Old-Age and Survivors Insurance
17 Trust Fund and Disability Insurance Trust Fund
The bill also ignore obligations that aren't US Treasuries.
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:16 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
There will be no default unless Obama and Senate democrats insist on it.
Ok, Baghdad Pat.
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:17 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Cave Johnson View Post
You, unsourced, said we could retool the Treasury system for outlays. You said it would be "months" before the system was worked out. Basically you're admitting they'll be missed bond payments in the interim.

And, ****o, you're ignoring inherently unpredictable early bond redemptions. I don't think you have the foggiest notion about how finance works.
I'm not ignoring anything you ignorant hack. It doesn't matter if there are redemptions or bonds come to maturity, you can always sell back up to the debt ceiling. You really are useless in this debate.

As to your assertion regarding missed payments. At THIS point that may actually be true since it has gone so long that it may be too late to even patch the system to work in time. BUT who cares? That isn't what we are debating. Obama/Reid blocked HR 807 multiple times over the last 2 YEARS. IF Obama/Reid said "sorry we don't ever want to threaten default but NOW it's too late we have run out of time, but once we get a new debt ceiling we will adopt HR 807" then I'd be happy as a clam. That isn't close to what's going on and pretending this is simply a practical "one time" issue is either ignorant as shit or disingenuous as shit.
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:24 PM   #150
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No, I know how the ratings agency actually work. Go look up what they say they do on their on sites and investopedia if you don't believe me.

And no the bill doesn't say all public debt. It says all debt held by the public.



The bill also ignore obligations that aren't US Treasuries.
No obviously you DON'T know how they work in regards to bond ratings if you HONESTLY think that a law guaranteeing bond interest payments would somehow cause a LOWER rating. The way the ratings work (since you obviously need an explanation) is that they are an assessment of RISK. That RISK being whether or not a default will occur. So what you are trying to sell here is that HR 807 INCREASES risk of default by making default illegal.

All debt held by the public and all public debt are the exact same thing. What the **** do you think it means? Scratch that I don't care what you think it means. We are talking about "All debt held by the public." Better?
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