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Old 10-08-2013, 08:22 PM  
AustinChief AustinChief is offline
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For those claiming it is the GOP to blame for a possible default...

Explain to me why the DEMOCRATS under Reid refused to pass the Full Faith and Credit Act which was passed by the House. And why Obama threatened to veto it if it got to him?

You all seem to whine and cry that we should ALWAYS pay our debts. Well that law makes certain that in a situation like this... we always do.

You can read it here
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-1...113hr807rh.pdf

Pretty simple. If we breach our credit limit we (BY LAW) must pay debts first thereby ensuring we NEVER default.

Let's hear your spin on this one.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:17 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by FD View Post
"The threat of default is to get more credit to maintain spending levels"?

I still don't know why he needs to threaten default to maintain current spending levels. For one, they are set by congress, not him. And he isn't challenging or disagreeing with the level of spending in the House CR.
Man seriously. What the **** is wrong with you? This isn't THAT hard.

Congress wants to SET lower spending levels (or delay Obamacare or whatever). Obama doesn't want that. So, instead of negotiating, Obama is saying "give me what I want or we will default".

I have no clue where you get the idea that Obama and the House AGREE on spending levels. Yes, the House is willing to agree to current spending levels IF they get something in return (say a delay on Obamacare) if not then they want spending cuts. Obama is trying to FORCE the House to agree by threatening a default. How are you not getting this?
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:19 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
At first I just assumed you were spinning shit in your normal partisan fashion but now it's pretty clear... you really have NO CLUE what you are talking about here. Why do you wade into a discussion when you are so completely ignorant of the subject matter?

Ok, let's dumb it down some MORE for you.

The House is NOT REFUSING TO PAY OUR DEBT. Obama/Reid are.(well they are using it as a threat) The House passed HR 807 to make sure our DEBT (those are all those past authorized expenditures) will ALWAYS be paid. Obama/Reid blocked it.

Obama is saying "If you don't give me more money to spend on whatever I want I won't pay the bills we already have."
I know exactly what I'm talking about and I am correct. And I have a feeling you recognize exactly what is going on but are simply putting this ridiculous spin on it just for the sake of arguing.

The ceiling needs to be lifted to pay the debts currently owed. The Rs are making demands--making the payment of those debts contingent on getting what they want--in this case, getting rid of Obamacare. The Ds aren't making demands, only asking that the bills be paid on spending Congress itself authorized. Somehow, you see that as the Ds causing the problem.

You can keep pointing to that bill, but again, you know it carries baggage making it unacceptable. If it is truly just a simple way to avoid defaulting despite the debt ceiling, then just get rid of the debt ceiling.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:24 AM   #108
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AC is making "defense attorney" arguments. He knows he has a shitty client and the facts are stacked against him, but he's got to make SOME argument--no matter how ridiculous it is under the slightest scrutiny. He's just got to make an effort so he can say he fought zealously for his client.

Then, just call the other side ignorant and declare victory.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:25 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Race Card native View Post
Again, you are ignoring the qualitative factors and other US Govt obligations that aren't US treasuries.

We have made our implicit backing of Fannie and Freddie explicit. What happens if they fall short and the US Government has to kick money out for those obligations?

That's just one scenario. That bill does nothing to actually reduce the risk of default. Just because they put language into it "guaranteeing" debt payment doesn't make it the magic cure for default risk.

Also, how do they define public? Are they going to just pay the Treasuries that are held by individuals or mutual funds? What about Treasuries held by the Fed or other central banks?
So. you actually don't work in finance right? Because this is some of the most ridiculous tripe I have read on this subject.

Let's address the claim that the bill does nothing to reduce the risk of default. WHAT? Are you ****ing stupid? It does EVERYTHING to reduce the risk of default you idiot. If we cap the debt ceiling AND guarantee debt payments BY LAW then exactly why would we default on debt payments? Do you have any idea how many DECADES it would take for our interest payments to reach a point where they exceed revenues? Hell it may not even be decades it may not even be possible if we capped the debt ceiling now.

Ok, next is how I "define public?" What? you are kinda showing your ass on this. These aren't loosey goosey terms here. Public debt is a clearly defined term. ALL PUBLIC DEBT. This conversation has always been about ALL public debt.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:25 AM   #110
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This stuff may be a bit over my head, so forgive me if this is a stupid question.

I see references to "public debt" and "obligations" as if they are the same thing. But are they?

What I mean is, borrowing the soccer mom credit report example, aren't we talking about a bill that insures that we pay the creditors, then makes mom prioritize the remaining money for her budget? Maybe that means a lower mortgage/rent, smaller grocery budget, etc.

That's what this essentially is isn't it? Paying the actual debt, then forcing the government to reduce spending to fit what's left over?
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:26 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
AC is making "defense attorney" arguments. He knows he has a shitty client and the facts are stacked against him, but he's got to make SOME argument--no matter how ridiculous it is under the slightest scrutiny. He's just got to make an effort so he can say he fought zealously for his client.

Then, just call the other side ignorant and declare victory.
Jesus what a shill...
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:30 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
I know exactly what I'm talking about and I am correct. And I have a feeling you recognize exactly what is going on but are simply putting this ridiculous spin on it just for the sake of arguing.

The ceiling needs to be lifted to pay the debts currently owed. The Rs are making demands--making the payment of those debts contingent on getting what they want--in this case, getting rid of Obamacare. The Ds aren't making demands, only asking that the bills be paid on spending Congress itself authorized. Somehow, you see that as the Ds causing the problem.

You can keep pointing to that bill, but again, you know it carries baggage making it unacceptable. If it is truly just a simple way to avoid defaulting despite the debt ceiling, then just get rid of the debt ceiling.
Jesus you really are clueless. You not only have no clue how the system functions but you also seem to have misguided ideas on what is being demanded. So, Reid $1.1 TRILLION increase on the debt ceiling is simply to pay the debt we already have? The debt we currently bring in 6 TIMES the revenue we need to pay.

WE ALREADY HAVE THE ****ING MONEY TO PAY OUR DEBTS. We don't have to raise the debt ceiling to do so. Raising the debt ceiling allows us to pay our debts AND spend more money. Obama/Reid are threatening to NOT pay our debts (THAT THEY HAVE THE MONEY TO PAY ON) unless they get MORE money to spend on other shit.

Jesus. How do you not see this.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:32 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
AC is making "defense attorney" arguments. He knows he has a shitty client and the facts are stacked against him, but he's got to make SOME argument--no matter how ridiculous it is under the slightest scrutiny. He's just got to make an effort so he can say he fought zealously for his client.

Then, just call the other side ignorant and declare victory.
No. I'll call you ignorant because you clearly haven't got a CLUE what you are talking about. You keep squawking about paying our bills when we have plenty of money RIGHT NOW to pay our debt. Over SIX TIMES more than enough.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:34 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by jspchief View Post
This stuff may be a bit over my head, so forgive me if this is a stupid question.

I see references to "public debt" and "obligations" as if they are the same thing. But are they?

What I mean is, borrowing the soccer mom credit report example, aren't we talking about a bill that insures that we pay the creditors, then makes mom prioritize the remaining money for her budget? Maybe that means a lower mortgage/rent, smaller grocery budget, etc.

That's what this essentially is isn't it? Paying the actual debt, then forcing the government to reduce spending to fit what's left over?
That is pretty much it. Yup. But according to our resident shills, that will somehow magically cause the credit agency to downgrade her because she didn't ask for an increase on her credit limits and take out any new loans this month.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:39 AM   #115
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Man seriously. What the **** is wrong with you? This isn't THAT hard.

Congress wants to SET lower spending levels (or delay Obamacare or whatever). Obama doesn't want that. So, instead of negotiating, Obama is saying "give me what I want or we will default".

I have no clue where you get the idea that Obama and the House AGREE on spending levels. Yes, the House is willing to agree to current spending levels IF they get something in return (say a delay on Obamacare) if not then they want spending cuts. Obama is trying to FORCE the House to agree by threatening a default. How are you not getting this?
I just find it strange that you keep claiming Obama is threatening a default if he doesn't get what he wants, but you can't tell me anything he wants. Is it higher spending than the House's level? No, he doesn't disagree with the level of spending (by the way, the bolded part of your post is completely made up, nobody has said that). He has never asked them to change the level of spending. Is it Obamacare? Obviously not, it would be absurd to threaten a default in order to get something he already has.

You are tying your head in knots on this when all I'm asking is a simple question, if he is the one making the threats, what are his demands? What is he asking for that he doesn't already have? I mean gosh he is willing to blow up the whole economy if he doesn't get his way, he must be asking for something pretty important. Check his press conference yesterday, sureky he mentioned it there.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:39 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
That is pretty much it. Yup. But according to our resident shills, that will somehow magically cause the credit agency to downgrade her because she didn't ask for an increase on her credit limits and take out any new loans this month.
Yeah it seems like it would have the opposite effect.

Soccer mom may not feed her kids, or get a new pair of birkenstocks, but she's going to make her minivan payment. Why would a creditor not like that?

Are people trying to claim that curbing spending is going to look bad?
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:46 AM   #117
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Good lord, AC. Tone it the **** down.

This is insufferable.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:50 AM   #118
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I just find it strange that you keep claiming Obama is threatening a default if he doesn't get what he wants, but you can't tell me anything he wants. Is it higher spending than the House's level? No, he doesn't disagree with the level of spending (by the way, the bolded part of your post is completely made up, nobody has said that). He has never asked them to change the level of spending. Is it Obamacare? Obviously not, it would be absurd to threaten a default in order to get something he already has.

You are tying your head in knots on this when all I'm asking is a simple question, if he is the one making the threats, what are his demands? What is he asking for that he doesn't already have? I mean gosh he is willing to blow up the whole economy if he doesn't get his way, he must be asking for something pretty important. Check his press conference yesterday, sureky he mentioned it there.
There's something to this.

Realistically I think we all know both sides are at fault here.

But the bill in question is mom saying "ok at least we can agree to pay the credit cards, even if we know there may not be enough left over for my salon budget and your poker budget". And dad says "no".
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:52 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by FD View Post
I just find it strange that you keep claiming Obama is threatening a default if he doesn't get what he wants, but you can't tell me anything he wants. Is it higher spending than the House's level? No, he doesn't disagree with the level of spending (by the way, the bolded part of your post is completely made up, nobody has said that). He has never asked them to change the level of spending. Is it Obamacare? Obviously not, it would be absurd to threaten a default in order to get something he already has.

You are tying your head in knots on this when all I'm asking is a simple question, if he is the one making the threats, what are his demands? What is he asking for that he doesn't already have? I mean gosh he is willing to blow up the whole economy if he doesn't get his way, he must be asking for something pretty important. Check his press conference yesterday, sureky he mentioned it there.
Jesus dude. I didn't make anything up at all. You really don't pay attention to any of this do you? Boehner just said "I'm not going to raise the debt limit without a serious conversation about dealing with problems that are driving the debt up. " What the **** do you think that means?

I am not tying my head in knots at all. You have simply gone full retard on this subject. You seem to have one MASSIVE misconception which is ****ing you over on this. You have some fantasy about the House approving certain spending levels. Please tell me when this occurred.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:57 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Man seriously. What the **** is wrong with you? This isn't THAT hard.

Congress wants to SET lower spending levels (or delay Obamacare or whatever). Obama doesn't want that. So, instead of negotiating, Obama is saying "give me what I want or we will default".

I have no clue where you get the idea that Obama and the House AGREE on spending levels. Yes, the House is willing to agree to current spending levels IF they get something in return (say a delay on Obamacare) if not then they want spending cuts. Obama is trying to FORCE the House to agree by threatening a default. How are you not getting this?
This is the ENTIRE problem. As you admitted, the R's have no idea what they want, other than some vague goals about smaller government and opposing Obamacare. How can anyone negotiate with such an amorphous party whose primary goal is opposition, not governance?

Oh, and the actual impact of a default would be pretty f'ing big.

Quote:
Something similar happened in the U.S. in 1979 when the Treasury briefly defaulted. Owing partly to Congress’s failure to raise the debt limit in a timely manner and some problems with Treasury’s equipment for printing checks, some payments that were due on May 3 and May 10 were missed. By May 17, all payments had been made and the Treasury was current with all bondholders. Nevertheless, yields on Treasury bills rose 60 basis points and stayed higher for years.

In a letter to Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner on April 25, 2011, Matthew Zames of J.P. Morgan, then-chairman of the Treasury Borrowing Advisory Committee, said, “Any delay in making an interest or principal payment by Treasury even for a very short period of time would put the U.S. Treasury and overall financial markets in uncharted territory, and could trigger another catastrophic financial crisis.”

In a survey of its largest clients, J.P. Morgan found that they were expecting a 37 basis point rise in yields on the 10-year Treasury security in the event of a temporary default. However, because they are more risk-averse, foreign investors said they expected a larger yield increase of 55 basis points. Such an increase in yields would raise Treasury’s annual borrowing costs $10 billion in the short run and $75 billion per year in the longer run as maturing debt turns over.
http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog...ett-debt-limit
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