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Old 10-08-2013, 08:22 PM  
AustinChief AustinChief is offline
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For those claiming it is the GOP to blame for a possible default...

Explain to me why the DEMOCRATS under Reid refused to pass the Full Faith and Credit Act which was passed by the House. And why Obama threatened to veto it if it got to him?

You all seem to whine and cry that we should ALWAYS pay our debts. Well that law makes certain that in a situation like this... we always do.

You can read it here
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-1...113hr807rh.pdf

Pretty simple. If we breach our credit limit we (BY LAW) must pay debts first thereby ensuring we NEVER default.

Let's hear your spin on this one.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:59 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by jspchief View Post
There's something to this.

Realistically I think we all know both sides are at fault here.

But the bill in question is mom saying "ok at least we can agree to pay the credit cards, even if we know there may not be enough left over for my salon budget and your poker budget". And dad says "no".
Nope. There isn't. It's misguided horsehit. He is basing it on the premise that the House somehow magically approved certain spending levels. Last I checked the House and Senate were still about $100 billion off from each other on FY 2014.
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:00 AM   #122
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Easier to teach a pig to sing. There is no getting through to the Obot fringe. They have learned that ignoring facts and repeating the lines sent out by dotgov is the new normal democrat.

We long for the return of the Truman demo. The LBJ's. This new style of non communication and create a crisis on every issue is growing old. Fact is this should never have been an issue if obama and reid had wanted a resolution.
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:00 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Jesus dude. I didn't make anything up at all. You really don't pay attention to any of this do you? Boehner just said "I'm not going to raise the debt limit without a serious conversation about dealing with problems that are driving the debt up. " What the **** do you think that means?
Reading that quote it almost sounds to me like Boehner is the one threatening to not raise the debt ceiling if he doesn't get what he wants. I must be reading it wrong though because I have been constantly reassured by very trustworthy posters on this very site that in fact it is Obama who is precipitating all this. I'm just trying to figure out what demands he is making.

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I am not tying my head in knots at all. You have simply gone full retard on this subject. You seem to have one MASSIVE misconception which is ****ing you over on this. You have some fantasy about the House approving certain spending levels. Please tell me when this occurred.
The House passed a CR on Sept 30 with the same spending levels as the Senate CR and Obama has not challenged these levels. In addition they are consistent with the GOP passed and supported Budget Control Act of 2011.
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:01 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Cave Johnson View Post
This is the ENTIRE problem. As you admitted, the R's have no idea what they want, other than some vague goals about smaller government and opposing Obamacare. How can anyone negotiate with such an amorphous party whose primary goal is opposition, not governance?

Oh, and the actual impact of a default would be pretty f'ing big.
Late to the party and obviously didn;t read or understand the entire thread! Nice work!

The one thing you got correct was that an ACTUAL default would be huge. So why then did Obama/Reid block HR 807 which makes default virtually impossible?
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:02 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
AC is making "defense attorney" arguments. He knows he has a shitty client and the facts are stacked against him, but he's got to make SOME argument--no matter how ridiculous it is under the slightest scrutiny. He's just got to make an effort so he can say he fought zealously for his client.

Then, just call the other side ignorant and declare victory.
Standard response, right from the liberal playbook.

When you are getting your ass handed to you in a debate and dont know shit for facts, attack the person.
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:04 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Jesus you really are clueless. You not only have no clue how the system functions but you also seem to have misguided ideas on what is being demanded. So, Reid $1.1 TRILLION increase on the debt ceiling is simply to pay the debt we already have? The debt we currently bring in 6 TIMES the revenue we need to pay.

WE ALREADY HAVE THE ****ING MONEY TO PAY OUR DEBTS. We don't have to raise the debt ceiling to do so. Raising the debt ceiling allows us to pay our debts AND spend more money. Obama/Reid are threatening to NOT pay our debts (THAT THEY HAVE THE MONEY TO PAY ON) unless they get MORE money to spend on other shit.

Jesus. How do you not see this.
I don't know, perhaps because a) prioritizing spending might be illegal (which would get the R's the impeachment they masturbate to daily) and b) it would be exceedingly difficult due to timing differences in when debts are due vs. when revenue comes in.

But hey, in R echochamber Kyleland, this is all a simple process like balancing a household budget. You people are impossible to deal with. Prion disease indeed. Christ of a cracker.

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In a May 18, 2011 report to its clients, Morgan Stanley economists took issue with the view that Treasury can stop paying all the rest of its bills, including Social Security benefits, and simply prioritize payments to debt holders, thus preventing a default. The report said that this is a highly impractical solution to the problem. As it explained:

Some have argued that the Treasury can manage its cash in a way that avoids default. For example, see the Wall Street Journal op-eds by Senator Pat Toomey and former Treasury official Emil Henry. However, the approach that they are advocating does not seem at all workable to us. The Treasury’s cash flows are too lumpy to simply prioritize one form of spending over another. For example, we would expect a significant political outburst if the Treasury withheld monthly Social Security checks at the beginning of the month (even though there was sufficient cash on hand to make the payments) just in case they needed this cash to make debt service payments at mid-month. Such a scenario is highly impractical – and probably not even legal.

On June 14, 2011, Federal Reserve Board chairman Ben Bernanke warned Congress about the dire economic consequences of failure to raise the debt limit. As he said:

Failing to raise the debt limit would require the federal government to delay or renege on payments for obligations already entered into. In particular, even a short suspension of payments on principal or interest on the Treasury's debt obligations could cause severe disruptions in financial markets and the payments system, induce ratings downgrades of U.S. government debt, create fundamental doubts about the creditworthiness of the United States, and damage the special role of the dollar and Treasury securities in global markets in the longer term. Interest rates would likely rise, slowing the recovery and, perversely, worsening the deficit problem by increasing required interest payments on the debt for what might well be a protracted period.

Treasury’s cash inflow almost never matches outflow on a daily or even monthly basis. And, as the Morgan Stanley report notes, it is simply not tenable for the Treasury to withhold Social Security payments to make interest payments that may not be due for weeks. (The curious should examine issues of the Daily Treasury Statement to see just how variable Treasury’s tax receipts and payments are.) This point was made by Morgan Stanley economist David Greenlaw in a July 8, 2011 report:

Debt prioritization is not a realistic option. It is being advocated by people who simply do not understand Treasury cash flows. While it is true that the government takes in a good deal more in receipts than it pays out in interest on the debt over the course of a full year, on certain days the government takes in much less than it pays out. For example, the Treasury has an interest payment of about $30 billion due on August 15. On that day, it will take in about $15 billion in tax receipts, so it won't even have enough to make the interest payment alone. Are the proponents of prioritization suggesting that the Treasury should withhold all of the $22 billion social security payment due on August 3, so it can cover a debt service interest payment that is due a couple of weeks later? If so, what is the legal basis for Treasury to do this?
http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog...ett-debt-limit
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:11 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
Late to the party and obviously didn;t read or understand the entire thread! Nice work!

The one thing you got correct was that an ACTUAL default would be huge. So why then did Obama/Reid block HR 807 which makes default virtually impossible?
Nice deflection on the ability to negotiate with R's, btw. As for why HR107 isn't a realistic bill, see post 126.

Also, if you can't acknowledge that HR107 in action wouldn't have a destabilizing effect on the world's view of the US's economic stability, then I don't know what I can tell you. The skies are different colors in our respective worlds.

Fun fact: HR107 in the previous Congress was an impeachment bill.
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:12 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by FD View Post
Reading that quote it almost sounds to me like Boehner is the one threatening to not raise the debt ceiling if he doesn't get what he wants. I must be reading it wrong though because I have been constantly reassured by very trustworthy posters on this very site that in fact it is Obama who is precipitating all this. I'm just trying to figure out what demands he is making.



The House passed a CR on Sept 30 with the same spending levels as the Senate CR and Obama has not challenged these levels. In addition they are consistent with the GOP passed and supported Budget Control Act of 2011.
You are absolutely correct that the House is threatening not to raise the debt ceiling if they don't get what they want. 100%. What you are being Gumpish on is that you EQUATE that to a threat of default.

The entire point of this thread is to show that the House made it very clear that they wanted to always avoid default REGARDLESS of the status of the debt ceiling. They passed HR 807 to ensure this.

Obama/Reid blocked HR 807.

So what Obama WANTS is a raised debt ceiling. He is THREATENING default to get it. The House wants whatever the **** they want but they are not threatening default they are threatening not to raise the debt ceiling. Ok, NOW do you see the difference?
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:12 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Cave Johnson View Post
Nice deflection on the ability to negotiate with R's, btw. As for why HR107 isn't a realistic bill, see post 126.

Fun fact: HR107 in the previous Congress was an impeachment bill.
it's HR 807
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:19 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
You are absolutely correct that the House is threatening not to raise the debt ceiling if they don't get what they want. 100%. What you are being Gumpish on is that you EQUATE that to a threat of default.

The entire point of this thread is to show that the House made it very clear that they wanted to always avoid default REGARDLESS of the status of the debt ceiling. They passed HR 807 to ensure this.

Obama/Reid blocked HR 807.

So what Obama WANTS is a raised debt ceiling. He is THREATENING default to get it. The House wants whatever the **** they want but they are not threatening default they are threatening not to raise the debt ceiling. Ok, NOW do you see the difference?
Yes, I see the difference now. I am happy to have finally gotten your idiotic and insane position on this into the cool light of day.

You should reread it, your post, take in every word, let them wash over you. This is who you are now, this is what you've become. There is no turning back.
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:20 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Cave Johnson View Post
I don't know, perhaps because a) prioritizing spending might be illegal (which would get the R's the impeachment they masturbate to daily) and b) it would be exceedingly difficult due to timing differences in when debts are due vs. when revenue comes in.

But hey, in R echochamber Kyleland, this is all a simple process like balancing a household budget. You people are impossible to deal with. Prion disease indeed. Christ of a cracker.



http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog...ett-debt-limit
a) not if HR 807 passes. Kinda the point.
b) no it wouldn't be difficult at all ONCE the technical aspects of the system were implemented. I will readily admit that once HR 807 gets passed you are probably looking at 6+ months before it could feasibly be implemented long term. (but there are likely to be "fixes" that could be done in an emergency if we needed it now)

The article you posted is so full of over simplistic ignorance that I'm surprised you'd want to associate yourself with it. Ok not really, not surprised at all. Yes, the CURRENT systems wouldn't support us simply telling the Treasury "pay interest first!" Passage of HR 807 would require some retooling of the Treasury system for outlays. Something that should be done anyway. The rest of the objections made are typical "it can't be done" excused used by those who don't WANT it to be done so they never bother actually looking any further.

Last edited by AustinChief; 10-09-2013 at 10:30 AM.. Reason: too many apostrophes!
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:21 AM   #132
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:26 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by FD View Post
Yes, I see the difference now. I am happy to have finally gotten your idiotic and insane position on this into the cool light of day.

You should reread it, your post, take in every word, let them wash over you. This is who you are now, this is what you've become. There is no turning back.
My position? I'm actually fairly convinced at this point that you are too ****ing stupid to even grasp my position. (based on the level of willful ignorance you have show so far)

I'll try to help you out and explain it yet again... my position is quite simple. The threat of DEFAULT has come from Obama/Reid all along.

You have disagreed and it seems you disagree because you equate the debt ceiling with a necessary default. Even though the point of this thread is to show that that position holds no water. HR 807 would have made it LAW that regardless of the debt ceiling we would never default.
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:42 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by AustinChief View Post
My position? I'm actually fairly convinced at this point that you are too ****ing stupid to even grasp my position. (based on the level of willful ignorance you have show so far)

I'll try to help you out and explain it yet again... my position is quite simple. The threat of DEFAULT has come from Obama/Reid all along.

You have disagreed and it seems you disagree because you equate the debt ceiling with a necessary default. Even though the point of this thread is to show that that position holds no water. HR 807 would have made it LAW that regardless of the debt ceiling we would never default.
You've apparently gone full RWNJ on this issue. Failing to raise the debt ceiling, HB807 or no, would trigger a technical default and then require debt prioritization. Your partisan brain thinks that's not a bad thing, pretty much everyone that's an economist or non-ideologue says otherwise.

Quote:
University of California, Berkeley, economist Barry Eichengreen, a world-renowned expert on the international monetary system, warned that a debt default could lead to a run on the dollar if foreigners come to feel that the U.S. is being run by irresponsible leaders. As he put it:

If there is a threat to the dollar, it stems not from monetary policy, but from the fiscal side. What is most likely to precipitate a dollar crash is evidence that U.S. budgets are not being made by responsible adults. A U.S. Congress engaged in political grandstanding might fail to raise the debt ceiling, triggering a technical default. Evidence that the inmates were running the asylum would almost certainly precipitate the wholesale liquidation of U.S. Treasury bonds by foreign investors.
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:43 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by notorious View Post
Damn, Austin put on his "Rape Face" this morning.
His stupid "try out an argument for the pubs" approach has been turned up to 11.

I'm not sure why this is hard for Austin to understand. The R's don't want Obama to have a successful presidency, and, as demonstrated in Clinton's 2nd term and the 2011 debt ceiling debate, they're willing to drag the country down to "win".

Last edited by Cave Johnson; 10-09-2013 at 10:49 AM..
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