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Old 10-10-2013, 09:48 AM  
Taco John Taco John is offline
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Report: Boehner to extend clean debt ceiling; Hold the line on Obamacare shutdown

GOP offers short-term debt-limit increase, but wants negotiations before ending shutdown

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...300_print.html
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Old 10-11-2013, 06:41 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiderhader View Post
I am addressing the main point with my question. What exactly has Obama allowed the republicans to have up to this point that would make your analogy in any way relevant?
It is relevant because it is the logical converse of the current situation.

Republicans refuse to open up the government and raise the debt ceiling unless they get policy concession x.

Why not turn it around and

Democrats refuse to open government and raise the debt ceiling unless they get policy concession y.

Because keeping the government open and not defaulting are not "prizes" for anyone to be bartered and sold. They constitute the bare minimum job performance. Giving into or tolerating such demands sets a very dangerous precedent that the other side will not enjoy much if they ever get in power again.

It reminds me of back in the early 90s when Republicans wanted to start getting really aggressive with the filibuster in the Senate. That was swell until the other side decided to follow suit and now both sides get almost impossibly thwarted if they are in the majority and the number of filibusters went from a couple a year to in the hundreds.

It is becoming highly dysfunctional.
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Old 10-11-2013, 07:06 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banyon View Post
Because keeping the government open and not defaulting are not "prizes" for anyone to be bartered and sold. They constitute the bare minimum job performance. Giving into or tolerating such demands sets a very dangerous precedent
This.

Obama will not give in to demands under those terms for that very reason.

If Obama gives in to demands, then these tactics will become common place within our government process. We do not want this to become common.

Using funding the Government and the debt ceiling as leverage to attempt to pass an agenda that would otherwise not pass the checks and balances of our government starts us down a very undemocratic path.

Using the government shutdown and the debt ceiling as leverage to force a minority favored outcome is not how our system is supposed to work.
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Old 10-11-2013, 07:12 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Yeah, they recognized the serious fiscal crisis on the horizon that would come with default and they embraced the opportunity to do as much damage as possible.
The only people in positions of power that I hear threatening default are democrats.
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Old 10-11-2013, 07:23 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banyon View Post
It is relevant because it is the logical converse of the current situation.

Republicans refuse to open up the government and raise the debt ceiling unless they get policy concession x.

Why not turn it around and

Democrats refuse to open government and raise the debt ceiling unless they get policy concession y.

Because keeping the government open and not defaulting are not "prizes" for anyone to be bartered and sold. They constitute the bare minimum job performance. Giving into or tolerating such demands sets a very dangerous precedent that the other side will not enjoy much if they ever get in power again.

It reminds me of back in the early 90s when Republicans wanted to start getting really aggressive with the filibuster in the Senate. That was swell until the other side decided to follow suit and now both sides get almost impossibly thwarted if they are in the majority and the number of filibusters went from a couple a year to in the hundreds.

It is becoming highly dysfunctional.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
This.

Obama will not give in to demands under those terms for that very reason.

If Obama gives in to demands, then these tactics will become common place within our government process. We do not want this to become common.

Using funding the Government and the debt ceiling as leverage to attempt to pass an agenda that would otherwise not pass the checks and balances of our government starts us down a very undemocratic path.

Using the government shutdown and the debt ceiling as leverage to force a minority favored outcome is not how our system is supposed to work.
What we shouldn't want to become commonplace (and unfortunately, they already have) are routine debt ceiling increases. It's time to address our out-of-control entitlements, first and foremost, and spending in general. The democrats had a golden opportunity to address the core issue that drives a big part of our entitlement problem (health care costs) when they had total control of our government and instead they pursued the liberal goals of universal coverage and cost redistribution. Fringe kooks have been running our government for the past 4+ years. It's time to listen to the voices of reason within the tea party.
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Old 10-11-2013, 07:23 AM   #80
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This is exactly what I was hoping he'd do. Take the default off the table and set it on the back burner. Hold the line on a year delay of the mandate. Keep twisting that arm until it either falls off, or Obama gives in.

The one year delay isn't exactly necessary to budget reform. Sort of doubt Obama will give in on his signature achievement.

The arm that he is twisting isn't Obama's, it's America's. The "do this or we will throw the country into default" is a pretty radical approach. As to overall debt and budget negotiations, I agree, but again, Obamacare isn't central to that discussion.
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Old 10-11-2013, 07:26 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayze View Post
slightly off -topic, so apologies in advance etc.

but why isn't there something in place that requires a balanced budget? Serious question

Never has been. In theory it's a bad idea, since you could easily worsen a bad economy by forcing reduced spending when tax revenues go down because of an economic downturn. The reduced governmental spending then further reduces economic activity and tax revenues, leading to another cut in spending, creating a bad spiral.

In practical terms -- (1) there's no Constitutional requirement for it, and (2) no Congress can bind a future Congress, so there's no practical way to implement/force it short of a Constitutional amendment.

There was a movement to adopt such an amendment years ago (during the early Clinton era maybe?) but it died out. Amending hte Constitution takes serious heavy lifting. There isn't sufficient political support to do it.
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Old 10-11-2013, 07:27 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by DonInDenver View Post
There is, But Obama doesn't want that. The law of the land is that we have a balanced budget every year. Another law discarded.

Cite please.
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Old 10-11-2013, 07:28 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by RNR View Post
And when was the last time we had that?

He's flat wrong, so it hardly matters.
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Old 10-11-2013, 07:29 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
The one year delay isn't exactly necessary to budget reform. Sort of doubt Obama will give in on his signature achievement.

The arm that he is twisting isn't Obama's, it's America's. The "do this or we will throw the country into default" is a pretty radical approach. As to overall debt and budget negotiations, I agree, but again, Obamacare isn't central to that discussion.
Let's say the Republicans hold the line relentlessly. I understand that you will blame them for any negative result. But will you hold Obama blameless if, in the end, he let's the country go into default, despite having the ability to avoid it by simply delaying the individual mandate for a year, eliminating health care subsidies to Congressional staff, and repealing the unpopular medical device tax?

* I realize that I'm conflating the CR and debt ceiling issues here, but for the sake of argument let's say that Obama can get both a CR and a debt ceiling increase (that will keep us going for a full year) by agreeing to those three minor Obamacare-related concessions.
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Old 10-11-2013, 07:33 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Raiderhader View Post
I completely disagree. The higher you start the more room you have to work with and the greater the probability you land at least at your "line in the sand" point.

Yeah, you're not right. I do a ton of negotiating in my line of work, and the usual response to absurd demands is to ignore it. They're clearly angling for something way off market, and there's no reason to waste time responding as their absurd starting point clearly indicates that either (1) they don't understand the true value of the item at issue, or (2) they're trying to get a steal.

I'm not talking about politics, I'm talking about ALL negotiating.
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Old 10-11-2013, 07:39 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Let's say the Republicans hold the line relentlessly. I understand that you will blame them for any negative result. But will you hold Obama blameless if, in the end, he let's the country go into default, despite having the ability to avoid it by simply delaying the individual mandate for a year, eliminating health care subsidies to Congressional staff, and repealing the unpopular medical device tax?

* I realize that I'm conflating the CR and debt ceiling issues here, but for the sake of argument let's say that Obama can get both a CR and a debt ceiling increase (that will keep us going for a full year) by agreeing to those three minor Obamacare-related concessions.

"Blameless"? No, I definitely would not hold him blameless.

But I think he's going to hold the line on the mandate and force the Republicans to blink on that because I think he really, REALLY doubts they will let the country default over it.

If you're pretty darn sure the other side is bluffing, then you call the bluff instead of giving in, no?

EDIT: While I would probably blame the Republicans more than the Democrats for "any negative result", it's certainly not 100%/0%. I think BOTH parties have massively mismanaged our government, and I find it grossly irresponsible that the Democrats seemingly have their heads perpetually stuck in the sand over the looming entitlement crisis. In fact, I would APPLAUD it if the Republicans manage to get the Democrats to seriously look at entitlement reform, etc.

The issue to me is Obamacare. The Republicans seem to me to be willing to risk throwing the country into an economic tailspin and/or default over THE WRONG F'ING ISSUE!
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Old 10-11-2013, 07:46 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
"Blameless"? No, I definitely would not hold him blameless.

But I think he's going to hold the line on the mandate and force the Republicans to blink on that because I think he really, REALLY doubts they will let the country default over it.

If you're pretty darn sure the other side is bluffing, then you call the bluff instead of giving in, no?

EDIT: While I would probably blame the Republicans more than the Democrats for "any negative result", it's certainly not 100%/0%. I think BOTH parties have massively mismanaged our government, and I find it grossly irresponsible that the Democrats seemingly have their heads perpetually stuck in the sand over the looming entitlement crisis. In fact, I would APPLAUD it if the Republicans manage to get the Democrats to seriously look at entitlement reform, etc.

The issue to me is Obamacare. The Republicans seem to me to be willing to risk throwing the country into an economic tailspin and/or default over THE WRONG F'ING ISSUE!
Good answer. We're not very far apart on this.
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Old 10-11-2013, 07:52 AM   #88
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Good answer. We're not very far apart on this.

Sure, at 30,000 feet. I suspect if we sat down to discuss budget reform and entitlement reform, we'd find alot of disagreement in the details.

But still -- if Reagan and Tip O'Neill, who were about as far apart on the political spectrum as you could get, could agree on various reforms, you'd freaking THINK we could do it again.

Instead, Democrats excoriate Republicans for saying a single word about Social Security or any other entitlement program, while Republicans seem to think that balancing the budget should be done solely on the backs of the middle and lower classes, despite the massive wealth disparity that exists in this country, which is growing exponentially.



Compromise means BOTH sides like some of what they get, and hate some of what they give. Nobody is willing to give ANYTHING, so we're just ****ed, apparently.
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Old 10-11-2013, 07:56 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Sure, at 30,000 feet. I suspect if we sat down to discuss budget reform and entitlement reform, we'd find alot of disagreement in the details.

But still -- if Reagan and Tip O'Neill, who were about as far apart on the political spectrum as you could get, could agree on various reforms, you'd freaking THINK we could do it again.

Instead, Democrats excoriate Republicans for saying a single word about Social Security or any other entitlement program, while Republicans seem to think that balancing the budget should be done solely on the backs of the middle and lower classes, despite the massive wealth disparity that exists in this country, which is growing exponentially.



Compromise means BOTH sides like some of what they get, and hate some of what they give. Nobody is willing to give ANYTHING, so we're just ****ed, apparently.
There you have it...
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Old 10-11-2013, 08:03 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Sure, at 30,000 feet. I suspect if we sat down to discuss budget reform and entitlement reform, we'd find alot of disagreement in the details.
More than likely.
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