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Old 10-10-2013, 04:32 PM  
Taco John Taco John is offline
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Obama Buys Debt Ceiling Debacle - Rejects GOP Offer

Obama Rejects G.O.P. Offer of Short-Term Debt Limit Plan

By JACKIE CALMES and ASHLEY PARKER

At a meeting at the White House, President Obama turned down the proposal from Republicans to extend the nation’s borrowing authority for six weeks because it would not also reopen the government.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/11/us...debate.html?hp
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Old 10-13-2013, 08:32 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
Then why do they still bother serving Medicare patients? There's no law that says they have to. Why not open a hospital that only serves private insurance patients and rake in the big bucks?

Some hospitals get like 80% of their revenue from Medicare patients. You really think they're losing money on all those patients?

The last line make zero sense and is probably just one of those "death panel" lies your media bubble uses to scary you. Look what up? Do you have any kind of cite that isn't a ranty blog and/or doesn't end in infowars.com?
As I thought. Another liberal uninformed stooge.
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Old 10-13-2013, 09:41 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
I love how you guys fret about Obamacare hurting Medicare then, turn around in practically the same breath and blast "socialized medicine". Do you know what cognitive dissonance means?



I guarantee you no developed nation wishes they had our health care system. That may be the dumbest thing said in this thread. Yeah some rich people like to go to the Mayo clinic. Maybe you have good health coverage that you're happy with and don't care about others. That's great, but the fact is the health care system in the richest nation on earth screws over more of its citizens than like the next 50 richest countries behind us.

No where else in the developed world do people have to worry about pre-existing conditions. No where else do people go bankrupt over healthcare. Nowhere else do they make people wait to go to emergency rooms for treatment, then still spread the cost around in the most inefficient manner when people stiff the bill. Nowhere else do you pay 10 times reasonable price for standard procedures that the rest of the world has figured out how to deliver much cheaper.

Our system of delivering healthcare is the worst cluster**** you could possibly design. Hell conservatives complained about it all the time until about 2008 when it suddenly became the greatest healthcare system God ever gave man on the face of the earth. Our FUBAR healthcare system the whole reason they proposed mandates as a counter-proposal to Hillarycare and implemented it as Romneycare. Before they got hijacked by the batshit-crazy wing.

The whole thing is ****ing surreal.

Republicans avoided single payer (like your beloved Medicare), public option, and basically got everything they wanted in Obamacare (minus the name). So naturally they haven't stopped throwing a temper tantrum about it ever since. What a prize for them. They get everything they wanted and get to blame the other guy if it goes wrong.

Of course what they're really afraid of, and I think the smart ones know, is that it won't ultimately go wrong. Just like Medicare, SS etc. - sure there will be some glitches, which republicans will be blasting out of their media empire for the next decade. But ultimately Obamacare is going to improve a lot of real people's lives - working poor, waiters, entrepreneurs, independent contractors, etc. Some of whom even vote republican - and may now think twice.

Of course if republicans end up getting drubbed over this the die-hards like you will just blame the moocher class and double down on the crazy. That's much less painful than any kind of self-reflection.
This is really nothing but a long winded strawman argument. Conservatives aren't arguing for the status quo.
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Old 10-13-2013, 10:47 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
Then why do they still bother serving Medicare patients? There's no law that says they have to. Why not open a hospital that only serves private insurance patients and rake in the big bucks?
There actually is. It's called the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act, or EMTALA, from 1986. It says basically that a hospital can't refuse a patient just because they have no (or not enough) insurance.[/quote]

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Originally Posted by banyon View Post
Perceived slights now amend the Constitution?
No amending necessary. The Constitution, as part of the checks and balances on which our entire government is based, grants the House not only the right but the responsibility to decide initially what gets funded and what doesn't. The House (whose makeup is determined by population and has to keep getting re-elected every two years because it represents the American people) is charged with drawing up the budget and, if it doesn't like something (like the ACA) it can draw up that it doesn't fund it. There's no overreach there.

But - and there's always a big but - that budget then gets sent to the Senate. The Senate (whose makeup is a standard size and only has to be reelected every six years because it represents the individual states) has to approve it. They are allowed to and have the responsibility to refuse it if something they want funded (like the ACA) isn't funded. They are allowed to refuse it, and send it back to the House for revision. Which they did. Several times. There's no overreach there either.

What's supposed to happen next is that they - and here's the term that Democrats are currently loving to flambe Republicans for using - negotiate. They're supposed to come to an agreement, but they - both of them - haven't. They're failing. Our government isn't working. A pox on both of their chambers.

What's most troubling is that this is another sign (along with the filibuster) that tactics that, while Parliamentarily legal, are reviled, extreme, self-destructive, foolish, and uncool, are becoming more and more acceptable as legitimate strategies. I fear that next year, since the makeup of the House and Senate will be virtually unchanged, we will have the exact same breakdown in government and the same thing will happen.

Now here's where I am going to lose the conservatives, because I'm going to blame the majority of this on the shift of the Republican party to what used to be the extreme right. Previously Republican programs like cap and trade are now being attacked by that very party as being too liberal. Moderate Republicans are blasted as RINO's, or are primaried out by Tea Party members, and the legality of abortion and even birth control are back on the platform. In order to achieve their goals, the GOP has been embracing blatant obstructionism for some time; most of the filibusters are from the right, and both major shutdowns have been instituted by Republican Speakers. There's no doubt in my mind that the Right is moving farther right, which is dragging the rest of the field in its wake, because the Republicans are for the most part better at this politics thing, and Harry Reid is kind of a blustery moron.

Now, I have to say that if you're a conservative, this may not seem like a bad thing. The problem is that it's tearing the Republican party apart. The fracture between moderate and far right Republicans is obvious and growing. Republicans like John Boehner have to not only defend against the left (not a big problem in his district) but also from the far right, lest he be replaced by some enthusiastic young ADA with Tea Party ties. Mitt Romney was not popular with the Republican base, and their candidate before that is now positively hated by much of the party. Changing demographics (like an imminently blue Texas) mean that the Republicans have to adapt, and the old guard is having a hard time accepting that. They're in trouble.

So House Republicans need to keep trying to save what face they can, because they have elections coming up next year. Meanwhile, Senate Democrats are giving the flying double middle finger, because they have popular support and the President on their side. In the meantime, more than a million (if you count contractors and reliant business workers) are out of work, people are frustrated enough to ram the White House gates and set themselves on fire, and the rest of the world is laughing their asses off at us.

And while I'm here . . .

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Originally Posted by greg63 View Post
Yeah, umm relying on a comedian who tells it like it isn't for your source of news to bolster your flawed point of view doesn't exactly give credence to your opinion.
True. It's a bad idea to use Jon Stewart as a source.

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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
This is really nothing but a long winded strawman argument. Conservatives aren't arguing for the status quo.
Also true.
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Old 10-13-2013, 10:59 AM   #94
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Actually, I find that the structure of the government is working exactly how it is supposed to. It is set up for each part to oppose and check each other part. In that way only the truly important issues will get each part to agree to do something.

If each part is in agreement and it isn't a dire situation, most likely the citizens rights are about to get trampled and/or each citizens pocket is about to get picked.

So gridlock and government shutdowns: not a bug, it is a well thought out feature.
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Old 10-13-2013, 02:54 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by |Zach| View Post
This isn't going to turn out well for you.

Sorry in advance. Actually, not sorry at all...I think it is funny how fractured and worthless the GOP party is throwing a fit because they are on the wrong side of something signed into law and held up by the courts.
What difference does it being "signed into law and held up by the courts" make? Do you understand that that is true of a lot of bad laws that have eventually been fixed or repealed by Congress?
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Old 10-13-2013, 03:05 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Mr. Flopnuts View Post
It's dumbfounding to me that in less than a year you GOP'ers have completely forgotten how out of touch you are with average Americans. I understand you're angry as a mother****er over it, but it isn't changing anything. Just like you thought Romney would win in a landslide, you're wrong about this one too. The public is blaming your party for all of this. I'm not even sure the gerrymandering is going to help that party maintain control of the House. Looks like angry fists will be shaking for quite some time to come, because that hole is just getting dug deeper and deeper.
The public isn't blaming the GOP for all of this. It looks like you're out of touch too. The GOP is taking *more* of the initial negative response, but there's plenty of negativity to go around and none of it is a permanent reality.

You would be foolish to bet anything real on the democrats taking the House next year.
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Old 10-13-2013, 03:09 PM   #97
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To be fair, the public is blaming the GOP, but it's not only blaming the GOP. As you said, there's plenty of negativity to go around.
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Old 10-13-2013, 03:11 PM   #98
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To be fair, the public is blaming the GOP, but it's not only blaming the GOP. As you said, there's plenty of negativity to go around.
The part I was objecting to was his assertion that the public was blaming the GOP for "all of this". The public's sentiment isn't that unequivocal. I think Flopnuts believes it is though, because he's pretty out of touch.
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Old 10-13-2013, 03:16 PM   #99
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Old 10-13-2013, 09:52 PM   #100
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What difference does it being "signed into law and held up by the courts" make? Do you understand that that is true of a lot of bad laws that have eventually been fixed or repealed by Congress?
How many have been fixed or repealed by tying them to government functionality or the nations creditworthiness?
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Old 10-13-2013, 09:53 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Aries Walker View Post
There actually is. It's called the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act, or EMTALA, from 1986. It says basically that a hospital can't refuse a patient just because they have no (or not enough) insurance.


No amending necessary. The Constitution, as part of the checks and balances on which our entire government is based, grants the House not only the right but the responsibility to decide initially what gets funded and what doesn't. The House (whose makeup is determined by population and has to keep getting re-elected every two years because it represents the American people) is charged with drawing up the budget and, if it doesn't like something (like the ACA) it can draw up that it doesn't fund it. There's no overreach there.

But - and there's always a big but - that budget then gets sent to the Senate. The Senate (whose makeup is a standard size and only has to be reelected every six years because it represents the individual states) has to approve it. They are allowed to and have the responsibility to refuse it if something they want funded (like the ACA) isn't funded. They are allowed to refuse it, and send it back to the House for revision. Which they did. Several times. There's no overreach there either.

What's supposed to happen next is that they - and here's the term that Democrats are currently loving to flambe Republicans for using - negotiate. They're supposed to come to an agreement, but they - both of them - haven't. They're failing. Our government isn't working. A pox on both of their chambers.

What's most troubling is that this is another sign (along with the filibuster) that tactics that, while Parliamentarily legal, are reviled, extreme, self-destructive, foolish, and uncool, are becoming more and more acceptable as legitimate strategies. I fear that next year, since the makeup of the House and Senate will be virtually unchanged, we will have the exact same breakdown in government and the same thing will happen.

Now here's where I am going to lose the conservatives, because I'm going to blame the majority of this on the shift of the Republican party to what used to be the extreme right. Previously Republican programs like cap and trade are now being attacked by that very party as being too liberal. Moderate Republicans are blasted as RINO's, or are primaried out by Tea Party members, and the legality of abortion and even birth control are back on the platform. In order to achieve their goals, the GOP has been embracing blatant obstructionism for some time; most of the filibusters are from the right, and both major shutdowns have been instituted by Republican Speakers. There's no doubt in my mind that the Right is moving farther right, which is dragging the rest of the field in its wake, because the Republicans are for the most part better at this politics thing, and Harry Reid is kind of a blustery moron.

Now, I have to say that if you're a conservative, this may not seem like a bad thing. The problem is that it's tearing the Republican party apart. The fracture between moderate and far right Republicans is obvious and growing. Republicans like John Boehner have to not only defend against the left (not a big problem in his district) but also from the far right, lest he be replaced by some enthusiastic young ADA with Tea Party ties. Mitt Romney was not popular with the Republican base, and their candidate before that is now positively hated by much of the party. Changing demographics (like an imminently blue Texas) mean that the Republicans have to adapt, and the old guard is having a hard time accepting that. They're in trouble.

So House Republicans need to keep trying to save what face they can, because they have elections coming up next year. Meanwhile, Senate Democrats are giving the flying double middle finger, because they have popular support and the President on their side. In the meantime, more than a million (if you count contractors and reliant business workers) are out of work, people are frustrated enough to ram the White House gates and set themselves on fire, and the rest of the world is laughing their asses off at us.

And while I'm here . . .


True. It's a bad idea to use Jon Stewart as a source.


Also true.

Excellent post. Agree 1000%. Rep
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Old 10-14-2013, 12:20 AM   #102
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The public isn't blaming the GOP for all of this. It looks like you're out of touch too. The GOP is taking *more* of the initial negative response, but there's plenty of negativity to go around and none of it is a permanent reality.

You would be foolish to bet anything real on the democrats taking the House next year.
So you still think there is no downside for the Republican party to shutdown the government to try to defund Obamacare?
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Old 10-14-2013, 12:24 AM   #103
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So you still think there is no downside for the Republican party to shutdown the government to try to defund Obamacare?
Not if it works.
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Old 10-14-2013, 12:28 AM   #104
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Actually, not really any downside at all. This thing is set to fail. Not everybody has gotten their new premiums yet, but as they start to, they will be pissed and then connect 2 and 2 to get 4 and realize what this is all about.

Nobody I know really knows what this is all about right now. They just know that there's a shut down and the media is blaming the Republicans. But for the most part, none of them are feeling any of the effects of the shut down and don't really understand any of it.

That will change is a very real way when they get the news on their new insurance rates. Suddenly they'll come face to face sith what this law means for their premiums. And it won't stop there. When things get real good is when they try to go to the doctors office and find out that they're actually getting less for that money than what they got before.

No, there's not really any downside to the GOP holding their ground here. The Democrats are frog marching themselves into oblivion. The GOP just needs to stand firm and play the long game.
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Old 10-14-2013, 07:27 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by banyon View Post
How many have been fixed or repealed by tying them to government functionality or the nations creditworthiness?
I can't give you a full accounting, but it's happened multiple times. Most recently, it happened when excessive appropriations were addressed through the sequester compromise. It also happened during the Clinton/Gingrich years.

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On March 28, 1996, Congress sent Clinton a bill raising the debt ceiling and enacting two popular Contract with America initiatives—easing the regulatory burden on small businesses and slightly altering the tax structure for Social Security recipients. Clinton signed the bill two days later, and with that, the debt limit fight was over.
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