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Old 10-16-2013, 12:58 PM  
Dave Lane Dave Lane is offline
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For those that think the House Republicans don';t own the shutdown here...

Explain this away for me...

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Old 10-16-2013, 01:36 PM   #2
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i hope republicans realize that when they have the white house but the democrats take the house (i know i know, that might not be for awhile given gerrymandering), they will be confronted by the same tactics that they are employing now...

and i hope democrats figure out that those rare times the republicans actually want to negotiate they should negotiate with them while they have a chance..
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Old 10-16-2013, 01:41 PM   #3
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Just seems like one of a long line of crappy political tricks that have been played throughout this debacle. I do think the Democrats out Politicked and propagandized the Republicans. It never hurts to have the President completely on your side while pretending to be above all of it.

Had the Republicans started with and stuck with the talking points of we have out of control spending and we need to reign it in and the affordable care act is just a part of it instead of the core of their message it would have been better received. It seems were just about back to business as usual. Throw another trillion in debt on the Barbie and kick all the decisions down the road again.
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Old 10-16-2013, 01:46 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FishingRod View Post
Just seems like one of a long line of crappy political tricks that have been played throughout this debacle. I do think the Democrats out Politicked and propagandized the Republicans. It never hurts to have the President completely on your side while pretending to be above all of it.

Had the Republicans started with and stuck with the talking points of we have out of control spending and we need to reign it in and the affordable care act is just a part of it instead of the core of their message it would have been better received. It seems were just about back to business as usual. Throw another trillion in debt on the Barbie and kick all the decisions down the road again.
They screwed the pooch for sure. I'm all for debt reduction as the economy improves but that will escape both parties sadly.
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Old 10-16-2013, 01:52 PM   #5
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IF the economy continues to improve...

screwing around with the debt ceiling isn't going to hep much in that regard...
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Old 10-16-2013, 02:01 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Dave Lane View Post
They screwed the pooch for sure. I'm all for debt reduction as the economy improves but that will escape both parties sadly.

Our S.O.P seems to be spend too stimulate the economy which increases the debt which drags the economy down requiring more money be thrown at the economy again increasing the debt. Lather rinse and repeat.
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Old 10-16-2013, 02:39 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FishingRod View Post
Our S.O.P seems to be spend too stimulate the economy which increases the debt which drags the economy down requiring more money be thrown at the economy again increasing the debt. Lather rinse and repeat.
You are aware that the one study conservatives use as evidence to the "debt drags the economy down" was proven false, correct? Not to mention everything else wrong with what you said.
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Old 10-16-2013, 03:04 PM   #8
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You are aware that the one study conservatives use as evidence to the "debt drags the economy down" was proven false, correct? Not to mention everything else wrong with what you said.
Goota run for the day. But if you care to enlighten how spending more than we bring in is not what we do over and over and how it is also good that doing so is not a bad thing, since (everything I said is wrong) I’ll be happy to see the explanation when I have a minute tomorrow. I look forward to it.
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Old 10-16-2013, 05:04 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
You are aware that the one study conservatives use as evidence to the "debt drags the economy down" was proven false, correct? Not to mention everything else wrong with what you said.
So then Obama was wrong when as Senator he said overspending was irresponsible?
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Old 10-17-2013, 07:15 AM   #10
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Ok I’m back.

You know we were having as close to an adult conversation as can be had here but, you felt the need to drop a bag of flaming poop.

Oh well…
What one Study that Conservatives use? I would assume there are numerous studies on the economy that conclude Fascism or communism or any other kind of ism is the best economic system depending on what you want the results to be.
I was using the common sense approach.

If you have a constantly growing debt and the corresponding growing interest payment on the debt which outpaces the growth of the economy, it eventually becomes a situation like Greece. People just don’t seem to be able to grasp how big these numbers really are. For example if we were to take just the new Trillion dollars were are about to add to the debt and sent it back in time to 1776 and started repaying it at the Rate of $1 every second 24 hours a day 7 days a week with no vacations and no interest charged, in just another 31,445 ish years we would have it paid in full.
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Old 10-17-2013, 05:04 PM   #11
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Lane is a case study in 'how low can you go' on the IQ scale. Plain and simple - the House controls the purse. The House normally does NOT pass continuing resolutions of fail. The Senate either agrees to each item passed or not. Being that the House already passed it, if the Senate does not, it is on them. Corky understands shit like this. No matter how you try to abuse logic, it was and is on the Senate and Obama by virtue of his word to not sign as well. The only reason this ever passed is there are evil democrats that label themselves republicans that reside in the party. The House should have never budged. But you liberal dipshits cheer on your own downfall because you're too stupid and indoctrinated to realize it.
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Old 10-17-2013, 06:49 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FishingRod View Post
Ok I’m back.

You know we were having as close to an adult conversation as can be had here but, you felt the need to drop a bag of flaming poop.

Oh well…
What one Study that Conservatives use? I would assume there are numerous studies on the economy that conclude Fascism or communism or any other kind of ism is the best economic system depending on what you want the results to be.
I was using the common sense approach.

If you have a constantly growing debt and the corresponding growing interest payment on the debt which outpaces the growth of the economy, it eventually becomes a situation like Greece. People just don’t seem to be able to grasp how big these numbers really are. For example if we were to take just the new Trillion dollars were are about to add to the debt and sent it back in time to 1776 and started repaying it at the Rate of $1 every second 24 hours a day 7 days a week with no vacations and no interest charged, in just another 31,445 ish years we would have it paid in full.

Its called the Reinhart-Reogoff study. It was quoted by Paul Ryan in his budget. It was the main study that the view you are parroting was based off of.

It was proven to contain errors that even the authors of the study confessed too.

You can read the all the information here:

http://www.nextnewdeal.net/rortybomb...rious-problems

The main problem:

Quote:
Thomas Herndon, Michael Ash, and Robert Pollin of the University of Massachusetts, Amherst successfully replicate the results. After trying to replicate the Reinhart-Rogoff results and failing, they reached out to Reinhart and Rogoff and they were willing to share their data spreadhseet. This allowed Herndon et al. to see how how Reinhart and Rogoff's data was constructed.

They find that three main issues stand out. First, Reinhart and Rogoff selectively exclude years of high debt and average growth. Second, they use a debatable method to weight the countries. Third, there also appears to be a coding error that excludes high-debt and average-growth countries. All three bias in favor of their result, and without them you don't get their controversial result. Let's investigate further:

An easier to read summary of the issue can be found Here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3361299.html


Quote:
The debunking of Carmen Reinhart and Kenneth Rogoff continues.

The Harvard economists have argued that mistakes and omissions in their influential research on debt and economic growth don't change their ultimate austerity-justifying conclusion: That too much debt hurts growth.

But even this claim has now been disproved by two new studies, which suggest the opposite might in fact be true: Slow growth leads to higher debt, not the other way around.

In a post at Quartz, University of Michigan economics professor Miles Kimball and University of Michigan undergraduate student Yichuan Wang write that they have crunched Reinhart and Rogoff's data and found "not even a shred of evidence" that high debt levels lead to slower economic growth.

And a new paper by University of Massachusetts professor Arindrajit Dube finds evidence that Reinhart and Rogoff had the relationship between growth and debt backwards: Slow growth appears to cause higher debt, if anything.

As you can see from the chart from Dube's paper below, growth tends to be slower in the five years before countries have high debt levels. In the five years after they have high debt levels, there is no noticeable difference in growth at all, certainly not at the 90 percent debt-to-GDP level that Reinhart and Rogoff's 2010 paper made infamous. Kimball and Wang present similar findings in their Quartz piece. (Story continues below chart.)


This contradicts the conclusion of Reinhart and Rogoff's 2010 paper, "Growth in a Time of Debt," which has been used to justify austerity programs around the world. In that paper, and in many other papers, op-ed pieces and congressional testimony over the years, Reinhart And Rogoff have warned that high debt slows down growth, making it a huge problem to be dealt with immediately. The human costs of this error have been enormous.

Even after University of Massachusetts graduate student Thomas Herndon found Reinhart and Rogoff's work included errors and that their 2010 paper was missing important data, the researchers stood by their ultimate conclusion: that growth dropped off significantly after debt hit 90 percent of GDP. They claimed that austerity opponents like Paul Krugman have been so so rude to them for no good reason.

At the same time, they have tried to distance themselves a bit from the chicken-and-egg problem of whether debt causes slow growth, or vice-versa. "The frontier question for research is the issue of causality," they said in their lengthy New York Times piece responding to Herndon.

It looks like they should have thought a little harder about that frontier question three years ago.
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Old 10-17-2013, 06:50 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
You are aware that the one study conservatives use as evidence to the "debt drags the economy down" was proven false, correct? Not to mention everything else wrong with what you said.
So the economy is booming??? **** 'n A
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Old 10-17-2013, 07:29 PM   #14
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Old 10-18-2013, 09:02 AM   #15
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Loneiguana

So some people that don’t like the conclusions of the Harvard economists, disagree with their conclusions and the Harvard economists think that their argument is invalid. Sounds like a clear cut victory for spending more than you have.

What I think their argument shows is that when the economy slows the government spends a pot load of money causing a temporary spike in perceived and perhaps actual growth. After that has filtered through the economy the artificial spike has petered out and the economy seems to lag because its numbers are not being inflated. I think it is also pretty obvious that “what” the monies are spent on will determine if the end result is positive or negative in the long run. For example if one takes out a loan to buy a house, once that loan is paid back you should own a house and it is probably worth at least as much as you paid for it including interest. If you take all your friends on Vacation and run up a bill equivalent of buying a house, you may have some nice memories but nothing tangible to show for it.

You seem to be arguing that our current spending levels are fine and there is no need to address the issue. When two people can’t agree that there is even a problem, how can one get to the next logical step of what the solution might be. That being the case there really isn’t any more reason to continue this discussion with you than there is to start it anew with my cat.
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