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Old 10-20-2013, 07:16 PM  
mlyonsd mlyonsd is online now
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So when do democrats think our debt becomes a problem?

I'd really like to have someone here explain to me how the current Obama/Democrat philosophy doesn't have us on the Greece track.

Recession recovery failure.
Failure at job growth.
Energy policy doomed to fail our economy.
Obamacare increasing the debt.
All time high for people getting food stamps.

It's becoming apparent the democrats entire goal is to get as many people on government assistance as possible. We all lose.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:13 AM   #76
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“Everything about this post tells me you don't know how Bush manipulated the books to keep his debt from appearing.

The biggest cause of our current debt is Tax Cuts and Wars. This is fact.

What Obama did, that caused the surge of debt at the start of the term, was actually put the debt of the Wars on the Books.

From 2/25/09:”


So when Obama added another 160 billion- ish to the Bush recovery plan, greatly expanded the War in Afghanistan, made no Changes to the Iraq draw down schedule, extended the Bush Tax cuts for everyone and then lowered the SS tax and then extended the Bush Tax cuts again for the majority of Earners. You didn’t notice?

If the left and Obama didn’t like the “failed policies” of Bush, why do they keep expanding them?
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:44 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FishingRod View Post
So when Obama added another 160 billion- ish to the Bush recovery plan, greatly expanded the War in Afghanistan, made no Changes to the Iraq draw down schedule, extended the Bush Tax cuts for everyone and then lowered the SS tax and then extended the Bush Tax cuts again for the majority of Earners. You didn’t notice?

If the left and Obama didn’t like the “failed policies” of Bush, why do they keep expanding them?
Are you then agreeing, that the biggest cause of debts are War and Tax cuts?
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:15 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Are you then agreeing, that the biggest cause of debts are War and Tax cuts?
The biggest causes of our financial problems are slow growth and the actuarial realities of our entitlement programs.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:23 AM   #79
mlyonsd mlyonsd is online now
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
The biggest causes of our financial problems are the Obama economy and the actuarial realities of our entitlement programs.
FYP.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:29 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
I'd really like to have someone here explain to me how the current Obama/Democrat philosophy doesn't have us on the Greece track.


We are on the Greece track. This isn't a problem solely laid at the feet of Obama and the Democrats, however.

And there's a right way and a wrong way to try to fix it. Tying government shut downs to freaking Obamacare, and then changing course mid-stream to something else (what, nobody really seems to be able to pin down) is definitely the WRONG way.

Obama and the Democrats put forth a good faith effort to reform government in the collapsed "Grand Bargain". I've never heard that it wasn't a good faith effort, though it ultimately failed.

We need a similar effort, though more successful, to put us back on a path of fiscal sanity.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:30 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
FYP.
Thank you.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:30 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Mod98Ban View Post
Debt added by the previous 43 US Presidents combined, 1789-2008 was 6.4 trillion dollars. Obama's debt in one term was 6.5 trillion dollars. I think it's about time for these dumber than dirt socialist liberals to wake the F up. You can't keep passing the buck. I'm guessing that none of these idiots that voted for Obummer do their monthly finances this way, so why would you support someone that does?

You neither adjusted for inflation nor accounted for the most serious financial collapse since the Great Depression, which crushed tax revenues.

It's not like Obama went on a wild spending spree during his first term...
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:34 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
You realize even though you use the term 'broaden', you're still talking about raising taxes right?
Yes I do.

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"Broadening the tax base" is just a dogwhistle for "getting minorities to pay their share".
No, it's a dogwhistle for getting people in the middle/lower classes to bear some and/or more of the burden. It's not racially driven, it's economically driven.

Quote:
Also it will never happen because it would hit a ton of the republican base (many of whom currently pay no income tax even though they don't realize it) right in the pocket book.
I've seen no studies on whether what you say is true, so I have no response.

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I'd love to see Republicans actually succeed in "broadening the tax base" then watch a bunch of redneck hillbillies in red states freak out because now they're taking home even less money per paycheck. I'm sure they still find some way to blame the Democrats.
Fine. I don't care. To fix the problem EVERYONE needs to scream.

I want the middle class to bitch. I want the rich to weep. I want the Department of Defense to swear that ONE LESS SUPERCARRIER will mean the inevitable annihilation of the American way. I want Social Security pegged to real inflation of the stuff they buy, and not some unrealistic measure of inflation, and for the old farts to get all crotchety about it. I want a deal that guarantees we're not the next ****ing Greece, because you can bet your ass that everybody in Greece wishes they weren't ****ing Greece...
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:35 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
We are on the Greece track. This isn't a problem solely laid at the feet of Obama and the Democrats, however.

And there's a right way and a wrong way to try to fix it. Tying government shut downs to freaking Obamacare, and then changing course mid-stream to something else (what, nobody really seems to be able to pin down) is definitely the WRONG way.

Obama and the Democrats put forth a good faith effort to reform government in the collapsed "Grand Bargain". I've never heard that it wasn't a good faith effort, though it ultimately failed.

We need a similar effort, though more successful, to put us back on a path of fiscal sanity.
Bob Woodward blames everyone, but especially Obama and his poor leadership (including his attempt to push for additional taxes at the last minute) for torpedoing that "grand bargain". And even if Obama hadn't collapsed the talks at the last minute, it remains to be seen whether Congressional democrats (and Republicans for that matter) would have supported the deal.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:40 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco View Post
We're not taxing our way clear of $18,000,000,000,000.00, for ****'s sake.

There's taxes then there's taxes, and then there's debt and then there's debt. In theory we could carry that debt forever, and as inflation creeps up (hello debasing of currency, (and I'm sure TJ will love me mentioning it), it becomes more and more sustainable and ultimately less relevant.

While we're screaming about all this, the fact is that the budget deficit does seem to be shrinking even without action, which is positive news, as the economy slowly recovers and tax receipts increase.

The issue is long term entitlement commitments are unsustainable due to basic demographics. Once those hit us, we're dead meat. We MUST make changes. The sooner we do it, the less painful it will be. Wait too long, and suddenly we're Greece.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:42 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Bob Woodward blames everyone, but especially Obama and his poor leadership (including his attempt to push for additional taxes at the last minute) for torpedoing that "grand bargain". And even if Obama hadn't collapsed the talks at the last minute, it remains to be seen whether Congressional democrats (and Republicans for that matter) would have supported the deal.

It was a good faith effort to address the deficit situation which included concessions by Democrats on issues that they typically hold firm on. That's all I'm saying.

Ultimately a deal couldn't be reached, but to simply say Democrats have their head completely stuck in the same on this is belied by the Grand Bargain efforts.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:45 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
The biggest causes of our financial problems are slow growth and the actuarial realities of our entitlement programs.
Can you provide any evidence for that?

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Old 10-22-2013, 09:45 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
It was a good faith effort to address the deficit situation which included concessions by Democrats on issues that they typically hold firm on. That's all I'm saying.

Ultimately a deal couldn't be reached, but to simply say Democrats have their head completely stuck in the same on this is belied by the Grand Bargain efforts.
I don't know. I'm not willing to give full credit to either side for the near grand bargain. Given the way they react to the pinprick of a sequester, I'm not sure the grand bargain was more than the easy first step away from the path to Greece.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:46 AM   #89
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Are you then agreeing, that the biggest cause of debts are War and Tax cuts?
They are certainly part of the equation but, you just can’t say we spent this much on the wars and “would have” collected this much in taxes had the cuts never been implemented. It just isn’t simple like is portrayed on the graph shown previously in this thread.

During the Bush presidency we had one, of if not the longest periods of continuous growth in the economy in our history. Was it big spectacular growth? No it wasn’t but, it was ok and it went on for a long time. Neither the Wars, Tax cuts nor the economy existed in a vacuum. It is impossible to guess what the economy would have done had neither existed. My guess is that the economy would have been negatively affected with the absence of either or both with a recession as the likely result.

Recessions negatively affect revenues. Neither Congress nor the Executive branch are popular with the voters during a recession, so they tend to throw money at the problem bloating spending. How much more would they spend and how much less revenue would they collect? Gee Mr. Hand I don't know.

My guess would be, had we never invaded Iraq and Afghanistan and left the Tax rates as they were prior to the cuts, the debt would have been lower even had it brought a recession but, that is just a guess. Likewise, I suppose I can pull numbers out of my butt and make a graph say the debt would have been even higher by plugging in assumed numbers of my choosing.

Much like Hillary Clinton and Obama I thought the Iraq war seemed like the appropriate thing to do at the time. I seems pretty dishonest to now pretend I knew better. and I'm certainly glad they don't.

I answered you question as best I can, please answer mine. Why does this administration stay the course or expand on the vast majority of the Bush policies and while blaming him for the mess we are in because of those same policies?

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Old 10-22-2013, 09:48 AM   #90
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Can you provide any evidence for that?
I could, but I'm not going to bother.

I can tell you that that nonsense graph you keep posting is filled with assumptions about economic growth and the shape of future legislation and that it would look completely different if you change those assumptions.
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