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Old 10-21-2013, 02:43 PM  
Amnorix Amnorix is offline
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The EPA and Environmental Laws SUCK!!!

Over the years I've seen a number of threads and posts hating on the EPA and environmental regulations. Many seem to think that they are expensive and unnecessary burdens to the corporate world which would self-regulate. They ignore, of course, little things in our history like the Cuyahoga River in Cleveland actually catching on fire due to excessive pollution.

But if anyone needs another example of why it might not be best to let companies decide these things for themselves, they only need to look at what is going on in China these days.

http://world.time.com/2013/10/21/kid...ity/?hpt=hp_t3



A woman wearing a mask walk through a street covered by dense smog in Harbin, northern China, Oct. 21, 2013.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:27 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notorious View Post
That's what scares me.


The entire world could clean up their act but China will keep pumping out nasty shit.

Actually, Beijing had a pretty serious smog issue recently (last spring maybe), and it REALLY helped bring the issue to the politicians minds. Beijing has been emphasizing growth over EVERYTHING, but as that economy matures, they will start to shift focus to issues like pollution and intellectual property laws (only countries that HAVE IP worry about protecting it, and China is starting to get to that point).
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:27 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buehler445 View Post
The ****ing EPA tired to ****ing fine us for dust. They called them particulates, but they really tried. **** that in the face.

EPA, like unions and OSHA have gone too far.
By that definition the entire Western side of Kansas and Eastern Colorado are toxic on a windy day.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:29 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Actually, Beijing had a pretty serious smog issue recently (last spring maybe), and it REALLY helped bring the issue to the politicians minds. Beijing has been emphasizing growth over EVERYTHING, but as that economy matures, they will start to shift focus to issues like pollution and intellectual property laws (only countries that HAVE IP worry about protecting it, and China is starting to get to that point).
I can't imagine the health issue that they will be going through in a few years.


They probably don't care. Lose 10% of their population to lung problems and they will still be over a Billion.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:33 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
A totalitarian government allows its industry to pollute the air freely without repercussion, and capitalism takes the blame. This is a problem with government, not with capitalism.

In a free market system, there is a respect for property rights. Nobody has the right to pollute the air or the water, or property that they don't own - except when governments give them those rights. This pollution isn't a problem of capitalism. It's a problem of government.

Your overly simplistic statement doesn't touch on anything that I raised, to be honest.

"Nobody has the right to pollute the air or water", you say. Really? Without specific laws how do you enforce that prohibition that you blandly state exists. Without regulations, how much pollution is too much. Zillions of companies produce SOME pollution. How much is too much. Where is the line.

Before governmental regulation, companies polluted freely, and because laws were lax/non-existent, and causation was very difficult to establish, they weren't punished. If they were, they weren't punished enough to force them to institution pollution control measures. i.e. it was cheaper to pay minimal fines than it was to install the control measures.

India is NOT a totalitarian system, but it also has extensive pollution issues due to insufficient regulation.

Your response seems to be to blame the system of government, which is absurd, especially given the U.S.'s own pollution issues during the Industrial Revolution era. One could also point to England during that same timeframe.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:34 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buehler445 View Post
The ****ing EPA tired to ****ing fine us for dust. They called them particulates, but they really tried. **** that in the face.

EPA, like unions and OSHA have gone too far.

I know nothing about your specific situation, but obviously particulates can be pollutive, and illegal.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:36 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Radar Chief View Post
And this is news to you Amno? Because I and a few others have been trying to tell you for years what polluting pigs China is, which is why I was never good with the Kyoto Protocol.

Not news to me. It's just something to raise and discuss that isn't budget, budget, budget, Republicans suck, Cruz sucks, Democrats suck, budget, budget, Obamacare, Obama sucks, Obama sucks ad infinitum.

Given that this particular situation in China made it to the "front page" of news, I figured I'd mention it.

Countries that are catching up economically are always going to be more pollutive. They're emphasizie growth over EVERYTHING else. With 3x the population, all else being equal, China and India are going to be much more pollutive than the U.S., and all else is definitely NOT equal.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:42 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
I know nothing about your specific situation, but obviously particulates can be pollutive, and illegal.
He is a farmer.


It's dust from a field. The EPA would have to fine all of western Kansas if they try to control it.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:42 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notorious View Post
I can't imagine the health issue that they will be going through in a few years.


They probably don't care. Lose 10% of their population to lung problems and they will still be over a Billion.

I doubt they are that callous, but they're consciously deciding to ignore many health issues while focusing on industrial, economic and military growth, growth, growth.

Third world countries are just now grappling with issues that we were grappling with 100- 140 or so years ago. A fine example is the recent garment workers disaster in Bangladesh. There was a big garment factory fire in NYC 100 years ago. All for the same reasons -- lax laws regarding workplace conditions, worker safety, overcrowding, caring more about productivity/profits than safety, etc. etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangl...t_Factory_fire
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:43 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notorious View Post
He is a farmer.


It's dust from a field. The EPA would have to write a fine for all of western Kansas if they try to control it.

Ah. Then yes, that seems pretty stupid.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:45 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by blaise View Post
I don't know too many people that think factories should be unregulated. That doesn't mean some proposed environmental regulations couldn't be too restrictive and unnecessary.

One can always argue about whether rules are too restrictive and unnecessary. Hell, we argue about NFL rules....

But I seem to remember some here advocating that the EPA should be abolished, regulations left to the states, etc. etc.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:46 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Ah. Then yes, that seems pretty stupid.
I have yet to meet an EPA or OSHA person. I think they give us a pretty wide berth out here.

Farmers try their best to keep things clean now days with all of the new info. I remember 30 years ago it was not that way.


The tractors run so well today that the air that is exhausted is cleaner than the air that is pulled in. That's what I've been told, anyway.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:48 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
A totalitarian government allows its industry to pollute the air freely without repercussion, and capitalism takes the blame. This is a problem with government, not with capitalism.

In a free market system, there is a respect for property rights. Nobody has the right to pollute the air or the water, or property that they don't own - except when governments give them those rights. This pollution isn't a problem of capitalism. It's a problem of government.
There's a fatal flaw in your post. You say that the government allows its industry to pollute. Then you say in a free market system, there is no pollution because there is respect for property rights. If the industry has respect for property rights, why would they pollute in the first scenario where the government allows it? The government isn't taking action in either scenario, yet the industry freely pollutes in the first scenario, but respectfully doesn't in the second. And the difference is government non action?

Don't make a lick of sense.....
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:53 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish View Post
There's a fatal flaw in your post. You say that the government allows its industry to pollute. Then you say in a free market system, there is no pollution because there is respect for property rights. If the industry has respect for property rights, why would they pollute in the first scenario where the government allows it? The government isn't taking action in either scenario, yet the industry freely pollutes in the first scenario, but respectfully doesn't in the second. And the difference is government non action?

Don't make a lick of sense.....

It's Austrian School/Misean nonsense. Free markets are the magic bullet that answers EVERY question. Anything remotely wrong with anything is because of governmental interference.

Even if history actually proves the exact opposite....
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:59 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
A totalitarian government allows its industry to pollute the air freely without repercussion, and capitalism takes the blame. This is a problem with government, not with capitalism.

In a free market system, there is a respect for property rights. Nobody has the right to pollute the air or the water, or property that they don't own - except when governments give them those rights. This pollution isn't a problem of capitalism. It's a problem of government.
This makes no sense.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:03 AM   #30
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If companies were self-regulated they would take every advantage of it.


Why? Because it would save them money.
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