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Old 10-21-2013, 01:43 PM  
Amnorix Amnorix is offline
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The EPA and Environmental Laws SUCK!!!

Over the years I've seen a number of threads and posts hating on the EPA and environmental regulations. Many seem to think that they are expensive and unnecessary burdens to the corporate world which would self-regulate. They ignore, of course, little things in our history like the Cuyahoga River in Cleveland actually catching on fire due to excessive pollution.

But if anyone needs another example of why it might not be best to let companies decide these things for themselves, they only need to look at what is going on in China these days.

http://world.time.com/2013/10/21/kid...ity/?hpt=hp_t3



A woman wearing a mask walk through a street covered by dense smog in Harbin, northern China, Oct. 21, 2013.
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:21 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
So let me ask you -- what is the solution NOW? We are where we are. What would you do regarding the U.S.'s environmental laws.
The solution to virtually every problem this bloated government system has: turn it over to the states.
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:23 PM   #47
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You want to untangle the partisan mess that DC is in? Kick it down issue by issue to the states. It's really the only way.
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:24 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Over the years I've seen a number of threads and posts hating on the EPA and environmental regulations. Many seem to think that they are expensive and unnecessary burdens to the corporate world which would self-regulate. They ignore, of course, little things in our history like the Cuyahoga River in Cleveland actually catching on fire due to excessive pollution.

But if anyone needs another example of why it might not be best to let companies decide these things for themselves, they only need to look at what is going on in China these days.
You do get that this is the rhetorical equivalent of showing pictures of Communist pogroms as an argument against universal health care and wealth redistribution?
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:30 PM   #49
Amnorix Amnorix is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
The solution to virtually every problem this bloated government system has: turn it over to the states.

Right, because the big corporations would LOVE to have 50 different sets of environmental rules to deal with. Not that they don't already to some extent, but the states take guidance from the feds on many areas, and in some areas federal regulations supercede. Having 50 different sets of regulations would be a nightmare.

Your simplistic answer to "every problem" is, well, simplistic.
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:32 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Baby Lee View Post
You do get that this is the rhetorical equivalent of showing pictures of Communist pogroms as an argument against universal health care and wealth redistribution?

I see your point, but don't agree that it carries over the way you're suggesting.
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:33 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
There's a fatal flaw in your post. You say that the government allows its industry to pollute. Then you say in a free market system, there is no pollution because there is respect for property rights. If the industry has respect for property rights, why would they pollute in the first scenario where the government allows it? The government isn't taking action in either scenario, yet the industry freely pollutes in the first scenario, but respectfully doesn't in the second. And the difference is government non action?

Don't make a lick of sense.....
In an effort to inject a lick of sense. The government allows pollution by restricting the recourse of those affected by pollution against polluters. It not a question of government or no government, but of what priorities government has and whose rights they respect.

With property rights, you would optimally have recourse against entities that devalue your property.

In a totalitarian state, government interests decide who wins and people are separated from their property interests.

In a bureaucratic state, enforcement is likewise separated from individual interests.

In a market state, individuals decide what is too much of a devaluation of their property rights to bear and they are afforded standing to assert their rights against an offending party.
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:35 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Right, because the big corporations would LOVE to have 50 different sets of environmental rules to deal with. Not that they don't already to some extent, but the states take guidance from the feds on many areas, and in some areas federal regulations supercede. Having 50 different sets of regulations would be a nightmare.

Your simplistic answer to "every problem" is, well, simplistic.
So now you're arguing in favor of the big corporations? Your response is "complying with pollution laws would be HARD!"

This in a thread you, yourself titled, "The EPA and Environmental Laws SUCK!!!" trying to say my way was too lax, and China proves it. Now you're saying that having laws is so difficult for the polluters.

And I'm the nonsensical one. Thanks for the display of progressive brilliance. You're for the people until it's hard for the corporations. And then having tough laws is too hard on them. Instead, you want the "middle way" which is to hand 100% of everything over to the federal government and hope for the best one size fits all solution you possibly can.
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:45 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
A totalitarian government allows its industry to pollute the air freely without repercussion, and capitalism takes the blame. This is a problem with government, not with capitalism.

In a free market system, there is a respect for property rights. Nobody has the right to pollute the air or the water, or property that they don't own - except when governments give them those rights. This pollution isn't a problem of capitalism. It's a problem of government.
Absolute horse hockey....

Take away govt regs and let's see how much pollution comes about.

Lake Erie on fire comes to mind.
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:47 PM   #54
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I think the EPA has grown to think they are above the law and that their decisions ate holier than thou. I love to gut the shit out of them.
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:55 PM   #55
Amnorix Amnorix is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
So now you're arguing in favor of the big corporations? Your response is "complying with pollution laws would be HARD!"

This in a thread you, yourself titled, "The EPA and Environmental Laws SUCK!!!" trying to say my way was too lax, and China proves it. Now you're saying that having laws is so difficult for the polluters.

Turn on your brain -- what I'm saying is that a patchwork of 50 different sets of environmental laws is inefficient in a zillion different ways for those who need/want to comply with them.

Quote:
And I'm the nonsensical one. Thanks for the display of progressive brilliance. You're for the people until it's hard for the corporations. And then having tough laws is too hard on them. Instead, you want the "middle way" which is to hand 100% of everything over to the federal government and hope for the best one size fits all solution you possibly can.

Some things make sense to handle locally. Others on a state level, while yet others on a federal level.

In your book, EVERYTHING should be state level because the federal government should be an emasculated, pathetic shell of a government. Sorry, the Articles of Confederation were rejected. Your side lost that argument 200+ years ago.
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:56 PM   #56
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I think the EPA has grown to think they are above the law and that their decisions ate holier than thou. I love to gut the shit out of them.

Unfortunately, bureaucracies will definitely run amok from time to time. I'd rather have them than have China's situation, however.
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:59 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Unfortunately, bureaucracies will definitely run amok from time to time. I'd rather have them than have China's situation, however.
You really think the public would let it get that bad if we didn't have an EPA?
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Old 10-22-2013, 01:20 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
You really think the public would let it get that bad if we didn't have an EPA?

1. You need to be able to identify those who are doing the polluting. That's not necessarily easy for "the public".

2. You need to be able to do something to stop them from polluting. Would that be bringing a lawsuit? Who funds that? Who has standing? Who has the money to fight a mega corporation?

3. History suggests it would get that bad, and "the public" (who dat anyway?) wouldn't stop it before it got REALLY bad. Here's the Cuyahoga RIVER on fire due to its being so polluted.




The "public" did do something about it. They decided to adopt laws regulating pollution, etc.
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Last edited by Amnorix; 10-22-2013 at 02:15 PM..
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Old 10-22-2013, 01:48 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
1. You need to be able to identify those who are doing the polluting. That's not necessarily easy for "the public".

2. You need to be able to do something to stop them from polluting. Would that be bringing a lawsuit? Who funds that? Who has standing? Who has the money to fight a mega corporation?

3. History suggests it would get that bad, and "the public" (who dat anyway?) wouldn't stop it before it got REALLY bad. Here's the Cuyahoga RIVER on fire due to its being so polluted.




The "public" did do something about it. They decided to adopt laws regulating pollution, etc.
Fixed.
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Old 10-22-2013, 02:15 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Radar Chief View Post
Fixed.

Yeesh. Thanks.
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