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Old 10-21-2013, 01:43 PM  
Amnorix Amnorix is offline
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The EPA and Environmental Laws SUCK!!!

Over the years I've seen a number of threads and posts hating on the EPA and environmental regulations. Many seem to think that they are expensive and unnecessary burdens to the corporate world which would self-regulate. They ignore, of course, little things in our history like the Cuyahoga River in Cleveland actually catching on fire due to excessive pollution.

But if anyone needs another example of why it might not be best to let companies decide these things for themselves, they only need to look at what is going on in China these days.

http://world.time.com/2013/10/21/kid...ity/?hpt=hp_t3



A woman wearing a mask walk through a street covered by dense smog in Harbin, northern China, Oct. 21, 2013.
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Old 10-22-2013, 02:23 PM   #61
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Yeesh. Thanks.

Since this subject is kinda your baby, go check out the Tar Creek Superfund some time.
My granddad and I used to fish the Tar Creek, well until the water started turning orange.
I still drive through Picher to visit relatives, that place is a ghost town now though. Literally. The government was relocating residents anyway then a tornado hit, demolished the place and no one was allowed to rebuild there. Place needs to be dozed over anyway, itís just a big ole mess.
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Old 10-22-2013, 02:33 PM   #62
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1. You need to be able to identify those who are doing the polluting. That's not necessarily easy for "the public".

2. You need to be able to do something to stop them from polluting. Would that be bringing a lawsuit? Who funds that? Who has standing? Who has the money to fight a mega corporation?

3. History suggests it would get that bad, and "the public" (who dat anyway?) wouldn't stop it before it got REALLY bad. Here's the Cuyahoga RIVER on fire due to its being so polluted.

[img]http://www.local802afm.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/River-on-fire.jpg

The "public" did do something about it. They decided to adopt laws regulating pollution, etc.[/quote]
Fast forward to today where an agency runs amok violating individual citizens constitutional rights.
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Old 10-22-2013, 02:47 PM   #63
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In an effort to inject a lick of sense. The government allows pollution by restricting the recourse of those affected by pollution against polluters. It not a question of government or no government, but of what priorities government has and whose rights they respect.

With property rights, you would optimally have recourse against entities that devalue your property.

In a totalitarian state, government interests decide who wins and people are separated from their property interests.

In a bureaucratic state, enforcement is likewise separated from individual interests.

In a market state, individuals decide what is too much of a devaluation of their property rights to bear and they are afforded standing to assert their rights against an offending party.
Notice how no one chose to address this, and instead chose to demagogue the issue. I feel like I should give you a membership card of some sort. Once you start pointing out the web of hypocrisy that they're caught in, you become "fringe." Welcome to the club.
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Old 10-22-2013, 02:58 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Radar Chief View Post

Since this subject is kinda your baby, go check out the Tar Creek Superfund some time.
My granddad and I used to fish the Tar Creek, well until the water started turning orange.
I still drive through Picher to visit relatives, that place is a ghost town now though. Literally. The government was relocating residents anyway then a tornado hit, demolished the place and no one was allowed to rebuild there. Place needs to be dozed over anyway, it’s just a big ole mess.
Picher was really spooky a couple of years ago. It would have been the perfect place to film a Zombie movie. Now it is just gone.

There is a movie about it called the river ran red or something like that that was made 10-15 years ago that is kind of interesting. Well at leat the first 20-30 minutes is. Uncle Sam moved everyone 5 miles over to Quapa. I doubt their water has any lead in it

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Old 10-22-2013, 03:02 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Baby Lee View Post
In an effort to inject a lick of sense. The government allows pollution by restricting the recourse of those affected by pollution against polluters. It not a question of government or no government, but of what priorities government has and whose rights they respect.
Sorry I missed your post, somehow, the first time around. Been skipping around alot today. I'd agree with this portion of your post. No doubt about it, really.

Quote:
With property rights, you would optimally have recourse against entities that devalue your property.
Sure, optimally and hypothetically. "Recourse" meaning the right to sue, which can be protracted and expensive. Oh, but in today's environment, maybe we'd get lawyers that could handle the cases on a contingency. Nothing better than class action lawsuits. Everybody loves those. What often happens there is little more than highway robbery so that lawyers can greenmail corporations and take 33% of the proceeds.

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In a market state, individuals decide what is too much of a devaluation of their property rights to bear and they are afforded standing to assert their rights against an offending party.
Theoretically, yes. The reality is that you're going to end up with a helluva mess. First, absent regulation, you're going to have courts deciding, potentially with limited information (they can't engage in whatever fact-findign they want, the way Congress can) what constitutes pollution. Then you have issues around who has standing to sue. Layer on corporate uncertainty (absent standards, they're not going to know how far they may or may not need to go to curb pollution), and class action litigation, and you have a recipe for a really messy situation. Then you have the potential for bankruptcy protection to avoid the problem, if it were too big (something CERCLA helps to mitigate/prevent).

Let the market decide sounds great, but creates a host of other problems.
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Old 10-22-2013, 03:06 PM   #66
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Picher was really spooky a couple of years ago. It would have bee the perfect place to film a Zombie movie. Now it is just gone.

There is a movie about it called the river ran red or something like that that was made 10-15 years ago that is kind of interesting. Well at leat the first 20-30 minutes is. Uncle Sam moved everyone 5 miles over to Quapa. I doubt their water has any lead in it
I remember they used to allow off-roading on the chat piles.
Guys would bring their dirt bikes and dune buggies to play around on them. That eventually got shut down for safety reasons, but strangely enough because of the number of accidents there not because they were poisoning themselves by stirring up the lead and zinc dust.
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Old 10-22-2013, 03:16 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Sorry I missed your post, somehow, the first time around. Been skipping around alot today. I'd agree with this portion of your post. No doubt about it, really.



Sure, optimally and hypothetically. "Recourse" meaning the right to sue, which can be protracted and expensive. Oh, but in today's environment, maybe we'd get lawyers that could handle the cases on a contingency. Nothing better than class action lawsuits. Everybody loves those. What often happens there is little more than highway robbery so that lawyers can greenmail corporations and take 33% of the proceeds.



Theoretically, yes. The reality is that you're going to end up with a helluva mess. First, absent regulation, you're going to have courts deciding, potentially with limited information (they can't engage in whatever fact-findign they want, the way Congress can) what constitutes pollution. Then you have issues around who has standing to sue. Layer on corporate uncertainty (absent standards, they're not going to know how far they may or may not need to go to curb pollution), and class action litigation, and you have a recipe for a really messy situation. Then you have the potential for bankruptcy protection to avoid the problem, if it were too big (something CERCLA helps to mitigate/prevent).

Let the market decide sounds great, but creates a host of other problems.
So then your answer is to prioritize the interest of corporations and governments over the interests of the people, and individuals affected. Which is fine, but it sort of makes the entire premise of this thread rather doofy.
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Old 10-22-2013, 03:39 PM   #68
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Boils down to whether you place more faith in individual interest or blanket societal interest as a tool to establish facts and standards and optimize outcomes.

On one hand, a government asserting power is a mightier axe. On the other, an individual asserting its rights is more focused and tenacious.

Individuals can be steamrolled by powerful corporations, but governments can be steamrolled by lobbyists and societal apathy.
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Old 10-22-2013, 03:49 PM   #69
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So then your answer is to prioritize the interest of corporations and governments over the interests of the people, and individuals affected.
errr....no. The question is how best to protect people and individuals. That's the goal. Corporations are the ones pollution generally. You're not "protecting their interests", but there is a balance between corporations being given the ability to operate efficiently in terms of understanding and following regulations, and protecting the rights of individuals that may be affected by corporate activities.

Quote:
Which is fine, but it sort of makes the entire premise of this thread rather doofy.
Again, no.
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Old 10-22-2013, 03:50 PM   #70
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Boils down to whether you place more faith in individual interest or blanket societal interest as a tool to establish facts and standards and optimize outcomes.

On one hand, a government asserting power is a mightier axe. On the other, an individual asserting its rights is more focused and tenacious.

Individuals can be steamrolled by powerful corporations, but governments can be steamrolled by lobbyists and societal apathy.

Because individuals will inevitably be steamrolled, what tends to happen is class action lawsuits, which really becomes an effort by lawyers to line their own pockets, sometimes regardless of the actual merits of a suit. That is in no one's interests.
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Old 10-22-2013, 04:58 PM   #71
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Because individuals will inevitably be steamrolled, what tends to happen is class action lawsuits, which really becomes an effort by lawyers to line their own pockets, sometimes regardless of the actual merits of a suit. That is in no one's interests.
I'm not sure how you think you can describe problems with government and use it to rebut my argument that the problem is with government.

The idea is to fix the problems with government so that they work, right? Not create another layer, on top of layer, on top of layer - all which will eventually need fixing themselves. What's the problem with focusing those fixes locally, rather than federally?
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Old 10-22-2013, 05:06 PM   #72
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A totalitarian government allows its industry to pollute the air freely without repercussion, and capitalism takes the blame. This is a problem with government, not with capitalism.

In a free market system, there is a respect for property rights. Nobody has the right to pollute the air or the water, or property that they don't own - except when governments give them those rights. This pollution isn't a problem of capitalism. It's a problem of government.
The Tragedy of the Commons calls bullshit on your free market theory
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Old 10-22-2013, 05:12 PM   #73
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The Tragedy of the Commons calls bullshit on your free market theory
Nobel Prize-winning economist Elinor Ostrom and others revisited Hardin's work in 1999.[10] They found the tragedy of the commons not as prevalent or as difficult to solve, since locals have often come up with solutions to the commons problem themselves; when the commons is taken over by non-locals, those solutions can no longer be used.[11] Robert Axelrod contends that even self-interested individuals will often find ways to cooperate, because collective restraint serves both the collective and individual interests.[12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
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Old 10-22-2013, 05:21 PM   #74
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Nobel Prize-winning economist Elinor Ostrom and others revisited Hardin's work in 1999.[10] They found the tragedy of the commons not as prevalent or as difficult to solve, since locals have often come up with solutions to the commons problem themselves; when the commons is taken over by non-locals, those solutions can no longer be used.[11] Robert Axelrod contends that even self-interested individuals will often find ways to cooperate, because collective restraint serves both the collective and individual interests.[12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
On a micro level, sure. There was an example on NPR yesterday where farmers in western KS agreed to use less water for 5 years.

I'm not sure it applies to air pollution in Harbin, however.
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Old 10-23-2013, 06:56 AM   #75
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I guess I disagree, or perhaps don't even understand, when you say that capitalism is about profit for the sake of profit.

Ultimately, PEOPLE are in a system, and those people want to make a profit. Not for the sake fo profit, but for the sake of the stuff that wealth gets them.

Nor has any other system come remotely close to capitalism in harnessing people's ability to be productive. Other systems tend to hamper productivity by undercutting/thwarting the profit motive that people have.

I do agree that socializing losses is unacceptable.

Let me try communicating it better.

Ask yourself this question. What separates a 20th Century Capitalist from a 10th Century Merchant?

They Both have free Markets, they both operate on Supply and Demand (though the 10th Century Merchant doesn't understand it as well).

Why do we not call the Merchant a Capitalist?

Because the world view of the Merchant was not to make profit just to make a profit. That ideology, that the pursuit of profit justifies everything, is a capitalistic view.

Or, what you can buy or do with that profit isn't important. Just the fact that you are profitable is what is important. It is the only thing that is important.

Every decision a capitalist makes has one goal, maximize profits.

Oh, and it was the industrial revolution and the commercial revolution that harnessed peoples ability to be productive, not capitalism. Capitalism just gave companies the worldview to do whatever it takes to maximize profits.
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