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Old 10-22-2013, 09:52 AM  
Cochise Cochise is offline
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Canada's death panels

Canada's death panels
Last week Canadaís Supreme Court ruled that doctors could not unilaterally ignore a Toronto familyís decision to keep their near-dead husband and father on life support. In the same breath, however, the court also confirmed that, under the laws of Ontario, Canadaís most populous province, a group of government-appointed adjudicators could yet overrule the familyís choice. That tribunal, not the family or the doctors, has the ultimate power to pull the plug.
In other words: Canada has death panels.

In Ontario, by contrast, the provincial legislature decided in 1996 to create a quasijudicial tribunal, the Consent and Capacity Board, to make these life-and-death decisions more quickly. If a patientís substitute decision maker withholds consent, then doctors may apply to the boardócomprised of lawyers, mental health professionals, and community membersófor a determination that the proposed treatment is in the patientís best interest. If so, the board has the power to consent on the patientís behalf.
At issue in the Ontario case was the fate of Hassan Rasouli, a retired engineer who has been comatose in a Toronto hospital since he suffered complications following brain surgery three years ago. When Rasouliís doctors determined that he had no reasonable prospect of recovery, they sought to pull the plug. His family, convinced that Rasouli was slowly recovering, took his doctors to court.
Last Friday, they won. The Supreme Court of Canada ruled 5Ė2 that Ontario doctors may not decide to withhold treatment from patients in Rasouliís condition without consent from the next-in-line decision maker. In Rasouliís case, that is his wife. But, if she refuses consent, then her husbandís doctors can still ask for a ruling from Ontarioís Consent and Capacity Board. The Supreme Court confirmed last week that the board has the power to overrule her.

In Canada, with our single-payer health care system, Rasouliís situation has a very public bottom line: Should taxpayers foot the bill for his familyís indefinite goodbye?
But American critics of Canadian health care will declare that merely asking this question is unacceptable, unethical, even unthinkableóand that it proves that the Canadian system gives doctors a dangerous incentive to kill off their patients as quickly as possible. They are wrong. The Hippocratic Oathís promise to do no harm still applies. But they are also only wrong in part. When taxpayers provide only a finite number of acute care beds in public hospitals, a patient whose life has all but ended, but whose family insists on keeping her on life support, is occupying precious space that might otherwise house a patient whose best years are still ahead.
The incentives in the American health care system point in the opposite direction. In the United States, keeping an all-but-dead patient alive on life support in a hospital bed generates income for the hospital, for as long as its bills get paid.
Ontarioís Consent and Capacity Board provides an objective process for resolving these difficult, end-of-life dilemmas. The board is instructed by law to focus on the patientís best interests, not the health care systemís, or the governmentís bottom line. Still, the law recognizes that, though it is usually in the patientís best interests to be kept alive, it is not always so. As Rasouliís doctors told the Supreme Court, prolonging his life would entail the risk of infection, bedsores, and organ failure. When recovery is out of the question, in other words, there may be fates worse than death.
Yet, the question remains: Who decides? Remember that, outside of Ontario, the resolution of these end-of-life disputes is generally reserved for judges. Ontario has simply replaced them with experts and wise community members.*

Full article here:*http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...ood_thing.html
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:55 AM   #2
oldandslow oldandslow is offline
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We have insurance company death panels here. I am sure they are medically trained as well. Six of one, half dozen of another if you ask me.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:58 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by oldandslow View Post
We have insurance company death panels here. I am sure they are medically trained as well. Six of one, half dozen of another if you ask me.
No those are not identical situations. One is a govt the other is a contract between two people in the market on coverage and ability to pay. One is life and the other is govt taking life.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:59 AM   #4
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So, Cochise, you're in favor of families making emotion-based decisions in hopeless situations that may cost taxpayers tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars without the taxpayers, the doctors or anybody else having any say at all about it?

Is that right?
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Old 10-22-2013, 10:01 AM   #5
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Old 10-22-2013, 10:01 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
So, Cochise, you're in favor of families making emotion-based decisions in hopeless situations that may cost taxpayers tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars without the taxpayers, the doctors or anybody else having any say at all about it?

Is that right?
So you're in favor of government officials making the call to terminate lives to save money, based on bean counting and not decency? At some point, the beans mean more than the people...seems scary as hell to me.
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Old 10-22-2013, 10:11 AM   #7
Amnorix Amnorix is offline
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Originally Posted by InChiefsHell View Post
So you're in favor of government officials making the call to terminate lives to save money, based on bean counting and not decency? At some point, the beans mean more than the people...seems scary as hell to me.

I would not have it be a bunch of accountants, that's for damn sure, but I wouldn't just leave it to the family either.

You want to bring the person home and care for him/her there? Fine. You can pay the bill yourself? Fine. But ultimately, if someone else is paying, then someone else gets to have a voice to ensure that we curb any insanity about keeping someone plugged in forever no matter what.
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Old 10-22-2013, 10:20 AM   #8
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Unfortunately medical technology has reached a point where it may be able to keep someone alive indefinitely so there has to be some arbitrator as to how long someone could live at government expense on life-support
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Old 10-22-2013, 10:25 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by oldandslow View Post
We have insurance company death panels here. I am sure they are medically trained as well. Six of one, half dozen of another if you ask me.
It's not though.

If the insurance company decides they won't pay you can appeal to the courts/government.

When the Courts and Government makes these decisions...you have no one to appeal to.

Now look at the comments in this thread....you're using taxpayer money to keep people alive. This is a problem with having Government involved in healthcare at all because now everybody gets a say on whether you live or die.
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Old 10-22-2013, 10:28 AM   #10
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Unfortunately medical technology has reached a point where it may be able to keep someone alive indefinitely so there has to be some arbitrator as to how long someone could live at government expense on life-support
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:16 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
So, Cochise, you're in favor of ...
I didn't make any commentary at all on the subject.

I merely posted the article so that everyone can bat around the idea of government panels overruling the family on medical decisions.
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:40 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
I would not have it be a bunch of accountants, that's for damn sure, but I wouldn't just leave it to the family either.

You want to bring the person home and care for him/her there? Fine. You can pay the bill yourself? Fine. But ultimately, if someone else is paying, then someone else gets to have a voice to ensure that we curb any insanity about keeping someone plugged in forever no matter what.
So, if your kid or wife were hit by a drunk driver and the situation looked bleak according to the 'powers that be', you're totally cool with their decision to say "Sorry, but it's just too much money based on our projections".
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:42 PM   #13
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No those are not identical situations. One is a govt the other is a contract between two people in the market on coverage and ability to pay. One is life and the other is govt taking life.
huh?

Insurance decides not to pay, or govt decides not to pay. Don't see any difference or than semantics.
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:43 PM   #14
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So, if your kid or wife were hit by a drunk driver and the situation looked bleak according to the 'powers that be', you're totally cool with their decision to say "Sorry, but it's just too much money based on our projections".
Why are you asking the government/taxpayer to pay for her treatment in the first place? Pay your own bills.
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:43 PM   #15
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It's not though.

If the insurance company decides they won't pay you can appeal to the courts/government.

When the Courts and Government makes these decisions...you have no one to appeal to.

Now look at the comments in this thread....you're using taxpayer money to keep people alive. This is a problem with having Government involved in healthcare at all because now everybody gets a say on whether you live or die.
And take years to decide and by then you are already dead....
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