Home Mail MemberMap Chat (0) Wallpapers
Go Back   ChiefsPlanet > The Lounge > D.C.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-22-2013, 10:52 AM  
Cochise Cochise is offline
Legend
 
Cochise's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Casino cash: $19712
Canada's death panels

Canada's death panels
Last week Canadaís Supreme Court ruled that doctors could not unilaterally ignore a Toronto familyís decision to keep their near-dead husband and father on life support. In the same breath, however, the court also confirmed that, under the laws of Ontario, Canadaís most populous province, a group of government-appointed adjudicators could yet overrule the familyís choice. That tribunal, not the family or the doctors, has the ultimate power to pull the plug.
In other words: Canada has death panels.

In Ontario, by contrast, the provincial legislature decided in 1996 to create a quasijudicial tribunal, the Consent and Capacity Board, to make these life-and-death decisions more quickly. If a patientís substitute decision maker withholds consent, then doctors may apply to the boardócomprised of lawyers, mental health professionals, and community membersófor a determination that the proposed treatment is in the patientís best interest. If so, the board has the power to consent on the patientís behalf.
At issue in the Ontario case was the fate of Hassan Rasouli, a retired engineer who has been comatose in a Toronto hospital since he suffered complications following brain surgery three years ago. When Rasouliís doctors determined that he had no reasonable prospect of recovery, they sought to pull the plug. His family, convinced that Rasouli was slowly recovering, took his doctors to court.
Last Friday, they won. The Supreme Court of Canada ruled 5Ė2 that Ontario doctors may not decide to withhold treatment from patients in Rasouliís condition without consent from the next-in-line decision maker. In Rasouliís case, that is his wife. But, if she refuses consent, then her husbandís doctors can still ask for a ruling from Ontarioís Consent and Capacity Board. The Supreme Court confirmed last week that the board has the power to overrule her.

In Canada, with our single-payer health care system, Rasouliís situation has a very public bottom line: Should taxpayers foot the bill for his familyís indefinite goodbye?
But American critics of Canadian health care will declare that merely asking this question is unacceptable, unethical, even unthinkableóand that it proves that the Canadian system gives doctors a dangerous incentive to kill off their patients as quickly as possible. They are wrong. The Hippocratic Oathís promise to do no harm still applies. But they are also only wrong in part. When taxpayers provide only a finite number of acute care beds in public hospitals, a patient whose life has all but ended, but whose family insists on keeping her on life support, is occupying precious space that might otherwise house a patient whose best years are still ahead.
The incentives in the American health care system point in the opposite direction. In the United States, keeping an all-but-dead patient alive on life support in a hospital bed generates income for the hospital, for as long as its bills get paid.
Ontarioís Consent and Capacity Board provides an objective process for resolving these difficult, end-of-life dilemmas. The board is instructed by law to focus on the patientís best interests, not the health care systemís, or the governmentís bottom line. Still, the law recognizes that, though it is usually in the patientís best interests to be kept alive, it is not always so. As Rasouliís doctors told the Supreme Court, prolonging his life would entail the risk of infection, bedsores, and organ failure. When recovery is out of the question, in other words, there may be fates worse than death.
Yet, the question remains: Who decides? Remember that, outside of Ontario, the resolution of these end-of-life disputes is generally reserved for judges. Ontario has simply replaced them with experts and wise community members.*

Full article here:*http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...ood_thing.html
Posts: 43,860
Cochise has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Cochise has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Cochise has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Cochise has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Cochise has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Cochise has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Cochise has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Cochise has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Cochise has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Cochise has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Cochise has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 02:45 PM   #16
KILLER_CLOWN KILLER_CLOWN is offline
Be HEALED!!!!!!!
 
KILLER_CLOWN's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Fascist State
Casino cash: $9132
Quote:
Originally Posted by FD View Post
Why are you asking the government/taxpayer to pay for her treatment in the first place? Pay your own bills.
sure.
__________________
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father ... And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

"If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 24,597
KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.KILLER_CLOWN is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 03:26 PM   #17
Amnorix Amnorix is online now
In BB I trust
 
Amnorix's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Boston, Mass.
Casino cash: $12099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mile High Mania View Post
So, if your kid or wife were hit by a drunk driver and the situation looked bleak according to the 'powers that be', you're totally cool with their decision to say "Sorry, but it's just too much money based on our projections".

I would assume it's far more than that, though. I'd assume that there are baseline rules (has been in a coma for X period of time, or has irreversible brain damage, or whatever).

I'd also assume that the "powers that be" would include not only the doctor providing the care, but several independent doctors, as well as the inevitable bean counter.

But ultimately, if I'm not funding it and someone else is, then that "someone else" is going to have to have a say in things right?


Let me flip the hypothetical -- So, if someone's wife or kid was hit by a drunk driver and the case was clearly hopeless, you're totally cool with the family deciding to keep them on life support for years and years, potentially, at taxpayer cost?
__________________
"I love signature blocks on the Internet. I get to put whatever the hell I want in quotes, pick a pretend author, and bang, it's like he really said it." George Washington
Posts: 33,977
Amnorix has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Amnorix has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Amnorix has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Amnorix has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Amnorix has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Amnorix has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Amnorix has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Amnorix has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Amnorix has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Amnorix has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Amnorix has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 03:30 PM   #18
Garcia Bronco Garcia Bronco is offline
No Keys, No Problem
 

Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Denver
Casino cash: $8878
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldandslow View Post
And take years to decide and by then you are already dead....
The time to decide is the time to decide. That doesn't change.
Posts: 22,477
Garcia Bronco Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Garcia Bronco Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Garcia Bronco Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Garcia Bronco Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Garcia Bronco Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Garcia Bronco Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Garcia Bronco Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Garcia Bronco Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Garcia Bronco Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Garcia Bronco Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Garcia Bronco Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 03:42 PM   #19
loochy loochy is offline
That's what she said.
 
loochy's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: TECKSIS
Casino cash: $11651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Flopnuts View Post
Let drug offenders out of prison and convert them to hospitals. Bed problem solved.
yeah, but what about the Tuco Salamancas of the world?
__________________
Please note that any racist, sexist, or otherwise outrageous opinions expressed in this post have been made for comedic or trolling purposes only and are not the actual opinions of loochy or any affiliated entities. Reader discretion is advised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by big nasty kcnut View Post
yeah i may be a retard but I'll be the one banging your girlfriend when you're out with your friends.
Posts: 19,389
loochy is obviously part of the inner Circle.loochy is obviously part of the inner Circle.loochy is obviously part of the inner Circle.loochy is obviously part of the inner Circle.loochy is obviously part of the inner Circle.loochy is obviously part of the inner Circle.loochy is obviously part of the inner Circle.loochy is obviously part of the inner Circle.loochy is obviously part of the inner Circle.loochy is obviously part of the inner Circle.loochy is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 03:43 PM   #20
RedNeckRaider RedNeckRaider is offline
Got highway?
 
RedNeckRaider's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Close to the big pond~
Casino cash: $10844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco View Post
The time to decide is the time to decide. That doesn't change.
Bullshit I have talked with people from Canada. Between the process and the waiting list there is an applicable effort to wait the person needing treatment out. There is a large group of people who seek treatments in the US willing to pickup the tab to survive. The poor get buried~
__________________
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump.
David Ormsby Gore~
Posts: 24,633
RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 03:52 PM   #21
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldandslow View Post
We have insurance company death panels here. I am sure they are medically trained as well. Six of one, half dozen of another if you ask me.
I find politically driven death panels applied to a captive audience to be inferior to death panels based on maintaining a business in a competitive environment.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 03:55 PM   #22
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by InChiefsHell View Post
So you're in favor of government officials making the call to terminate lives to save money, based on bean counting and not decency? At some point, the beans mean more than the people...seems scary as hell to me.
Bean counting will only be one motivation. Political expedience and political pandering will be involved too. If I could trust government to be dispassionate bean counters who were good at crunching the numbers and making the right decisions (and if people had the ability to pay for care that goes beyond what government insurance provides if they so choose), I wouldn't have such strong objections to government death panels. But I can't, for obvious reasons.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 03:58 PM   #23
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco View Post
It's not though.

If the insurance company decides they won't pay you can appeal to the courts/government.

When the Courts and Government makes these decisions...you have no one to appeal to.

Now look at the comments in this thread....you're using taxpayer money to keep people alive. This is a problem with having Government involved in healthcare at all because now everybody gets a say on whether you live or die.
Excellent.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2013, 06:15 AM   #24
InChiefsHell InChiefsHell is offline
Rockin' yer FACE OFF!
 
InChiefsHell's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
Casino cash: $11401
Quote:
Originally Posted by FD View Post
Why are you asking the government/taxpayer to pay for her treatment in the first place? Pay your own bills.
Aaaand the argument against Obamacare is made!
__________________

We have a million reasons for failure, but not one excuse...
Die Donks, DIE!!

A quote:
"Oh well, there's always next year. We'll be better then, you'll see..." - Every Chiefs fan for the last 42...crap...43 years...

Quit listening to all that crappy new music and check out HEADSTRONG!
Posts: 13,327
InChiefsHell threw an interception on a screen pass.InChiefsHell threw an interception on a screen pass.InChiefsHell threw an interception on a screen pass.InChiefsHell threw an interception on a screen pass.InChiefsHell threw an interception on a screen pass.InChiefsHell threw an interception on a screen pass.InChiefsHell threw an interception on a screen pass.InChiefsHell threw an interception on a screen pass.InChiefsHell threw an interception on a screen pass.InChiefsHell threw an interception on a screen pass.InChiefsHell threw an interception on a screen pass.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2013, 08:24 AM   #25
Mile High Mania Mile High Mania is offline
Tapping out ...
 
Mile High Mania's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Tejas
Casino cash: $10072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
I would assume it's far more than that, though. I'd assume that there are baseline rules (has been in a coma for X period of time, or has irreversible brain damage, or whatever).

I'd also assume that the "powers that be" would include not only the doctor providing the care, but several independent doctors, as well as the inevitable bean counter.

But ultimately, if I'm not funding it and someone else is, then that "someone else" is going to have to have a say in things right?


Let me flip the hypothetical -- So, if someone's wife or kid was hit by a drunk driver and the case was clearly hopeless, you're totally cool with the family deciding to keep them on life support for years and years, potentially, at taxpayer cost?
Part of the flaw in the whole thing is taxpayer costs... you have insurance for a reason, in case of an emergency. If something happens to a loved one and there's just no light at the end of the tunnel... that's where the family and the doctors need to have a serious discussion and a plan. "Clearly hopeless" needs to be medically defined by the doctor and explained to the families to discuss the options.

It shouldn't go to a panel of anyone...

If you're not a family member and you're not a doctor... guess what, you shouldn't be involved in healthcare treatment, much less life and death decisions.
__________________

Posts: 20,156
Mile High Mania Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Mile High Mania Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Mile High Mania Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Mile High Mania Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Mile High Mania Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Mile High Mania Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Mile High Mania Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Mile High Mania Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Mile High Mania Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Mile High Mania Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Mile High Mania Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2013, 09:18 AM   #26
jspchief jspchief is offline
BAMF
 
jspchief's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Your Face
Casino cash: $9407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mile High Mania View Post

If you're not a family member and you're not a doctor... guess what, you shouldn't be involved in healthcare treatment, much less life and death decisions.
But I should be involved in paying for it?
__________________
Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear.
The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all.
Posts: 24,321
jspchief wants to die in a aids tree fire.jspchief wants to die in a aids tree fire.jspchief wants to die in a aids tree fire.jspchief wants to die in a aids tree fire.jspchief wants to die in a aids tree fire.jspchief wants to die in a aids tree fire.jspchief wants to die in a aids tree fire.jspchief wants to die in a aids tree fire.jspchief wants to die in a aids tree fire.jspchief wants to die in a aids tree fire.jspchief wants to die in a aids tree fire.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2013, 10:28 PM   #27
HonestChieffan HonestChieffan is offline
Country Santa Year Around
 
HonestChieffan's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In the Country in MO
Casino cash: $16491
Id think somewhere along the way when government does assume these powers that some formula be established that looks at age of the sick person, cost of expected care and return on the expenditure. If we have an 80 year old we shouldn't spend near what we would on a 30 year old. Emotion needs to be removed and rules established such that every case is judged and decided based on equal factors. This could save a lot of money that now gets wasted on the elderly
__________________
Frazod to KC Nitwit..."Hey, I saw a picture of some dumpy bitch with a horrible ****tarded giant back tattoo and couldn't help but think of you." Simple, Pure, Perfect. 7/31/2013

Dave Lane: "I have donated more money to people in my life as an atheist that most churches ever will."

Come home to Jesus Dave. Come home.
Posts: 29,870
HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.HonestChieffan is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2013, 10:48 PM   #28
cdcox cdcox is offline
www.nfl-forecast.com
 
cdcox's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2000
Casino cash: $19155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mile High Mania View Post

If you're not a family member and you're not a doctor... guess what, you shouldn't be involved in healthcare treatment, much less life and death decisions.
If you depend on insurance there are already other people involved in the decision.
Posts: 32,666
cdcox has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.cdcox has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.cdcox has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.cdcox has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.cdcox has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.cdcox has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.cdcox has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.cdcox has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.cdcox has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.cdcox has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.cdcox has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2013, 05:51 AM   #29
Mile High Mania Mile High Mania is offline
Tapping out ...
 
Mile High Mania's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Tejas
Casino cash: $10072
Quote:
Originally Posted by jspchief View Post
But I should be involved in paying for it?
Missed the first sentence, eh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdcox View Post
If you depend on insurance there are already other people involved in the decision.
You're apparently fine with a panel or review board that determines if a life is worth saving based on the expense. That's your opinion and I'm just not going to debate it.

If someone is paying 'insurance' which means I'm paying you money every month in case something horrific happens... then yeah, I think they should get whatever treatment they can get. I'm not one that would keep a loved one with no hope of healing on life support just because it was an option. But, I'm not pulling a plug if there actually is hope.
__________________

Posts: 20,156
Mile High Mania Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Mile High Mania Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Mile High Mania Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Mile High Mania Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Mile High Mania Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Mile High Mania Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Mile High Mania Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Mile High Mania Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Mile High Mania Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Mile High Mania Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.Mile High Mania Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2013, 07:25 AM   #30
jspchief jspchief is offline
BAMF
 
jspchief's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Your Face
Casino cash: $9407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mile High Mania View Post
Missed the first sentence, eh?
No, I didn't. The mistake you and others are making is applying this only to taxpayer funded healthcare. Even with private policies, all paticipants are paying for that person's decision to keep someone in a vegetative state (or whatever the undefined condition is that would warrant a death panel).

In a society where medical expenses are out of control, we need to take a serious look at waste. The patient's family, the hospital, and the insurance company all have motives for how that decision is made.

It's not politically correct, but this is an area to cut expense. Make a set of standards that determine the line in the sand. Then if a person wants life preserved beyond that point, they pay out of pocket, or they pay to be in a separate insurance pool that anticipates that cost.

It's a sensational topic that no one wants to take on, but if you but a number on the difference in cost, how big would that number be and how many people would willingly pay it?
__________________
Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear.
The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all.
Posts: 24,321
jspchief wants to die in a aids tree fire.jspchief wants to die in a aids tree fire.jspchief wants to die in a aids tree fire.jspchief wants to die in a aids tree fire.jspchief wants to die in a aids tree fire.jspchief wants to die in a aids tree fire.jspchief wants to die in a aids tree fire.jspchief wants to die in a aids tree fire.jspchief wants to die in a aids tree fire.jspchief wants to die in a aids tree fire.jspchief wants to die in a aids tree fire.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:09 PM.


This is a test for a client's site.
A new website that shows member-created construction site listings that need fill or have excess fill. Dirt Monkey @ https://DirtMonkey.net
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.