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Old 10-22-2013, 10:52 AM  
Cochise Cochise is offline
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Canada's death panels

Canada's death panels
Last week Canadaís Supreme Court ruled that doctors could not unilaterally ignore a Toronto familyís decision to keep their near-dead husband and father on life support. In the same breath, however, the court also confirmed that, under the laws of Ontario, Canadaís most populous province, a group of government-appointed adjudicators could yet overrule the familyís choice. That tribunal, not the family or the doctors, has the ultimate power to pull the plug.
In other words: Canada has death panels.

In Ontario, by contrast, the provincial legislature decided in 1996 to create a quasijudicial tribunal, the Consent and Capacity Board, to make these life-and-death decisions more quickly. If a patientís substitute decision maker withholds consent, then doctors may apply to the boardócomprised of lawyers, mental health professionals, and community membersófor a determination that the proposed treatment is in the patientís best interest. If so, the board has the power to consent on the patientís behalf.
At issue in the Ontario case was the fate of Hassan Rasouli, a retired engineer who has been comatose in a Toronto hospital since he suffered complications following brain surgery three years ago. When Rasouliís doctors determined that he had no reasonable prospect of recovery, they sought to pull the plug. His family, convinced that Rasouli was slowly recovering, took his doctors to court.
Last Friday, they won. The Supreme Court of Canada ruled 5Ė2 that Ontario doctors may not decide to withhold treatment from patients in Rasouliís condition without consent from the next-in-line decision maker. In Rasouliís case, that is his wife. But, if she refuses consent, then her husbandís doctors can still ask for a ruling from Ontarioís Consent and Capacity Board. The Supreme Court confirmed last week that the board has the power to overrule her.

In Canada, with our single-payer health care system, Rasouliís situation has a very public bottom line: Should taxpayers foot the bill for his familyís indefinite goodbye?
But American critics of Canadian health care will declare that merely asking this question is unacceptable, unethical, even unthinkableóand that it proves that the Canadian system gives doctors a dangerous incentive to kill off their patients as quickly as possible. They are wrong. The Hippocratic Oathís promise to do no harm still applies. But they are also only wrong in part. When taxpayers provide only a finite number of acute care beds in public hospitals, a patient whose life has all but ended, but whose family insists on keeping her on life support, is occupying precious space that might otherwise house a patient whose best years are still ahead.
The incentives in the American health care system point in the opposite direction. In the United States, keeping an all-but-dead patient alive on life support in a hospital bed generates income for the hospital, for as long as its bills get paid.
Ontarioís Consent and Capacity Board provides an objective process for resolving these difficult, end-of-life dilemmas. The board is instructed by law to focus on the patientís best interests, not the health care systemís, or the governmentís bottom line. Still, the law recognizes that, though it is usually in the patientís best interests to be kept alive, it is not always so. As Rasouliís doctors told the Supreme Court, prolonging his life would entail the risk of infection, bedsores, and organ failure. When recovery is out of the question, in other words, there may be fates worse than death.
Yet, the question remains: Who decides? Remember that, outside of Ontario, the resolution of these end-of-life disputes is generally reserved for judges. Ontario has simply replaced them with experts and wise community members.*

Full article here:*http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...ood_thing.html
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Old 10-24-2013, 07:40 AM   #31
Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter is offline
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Originally Posted by oldandslow View Post
We have insurance company death panels here. I am sure they are medically trained as well. Six of one, half dozen of another if you ask me.
THIS. And any idiot too stupid to understand this deserves a one-way ticket to hell.

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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
So, Cochise, you're in favor of families making emotion-based decisions in hopeless situations that may cost taxpayers tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars without the taxpayers, the doctors or anybody else having any say at all about it?

Is that right?
Exactly. He and other tea party types decry death panels on the one hand, yet cry, cry, cry about any hint of increasing revenues to pay for shit like this...either by taxpayers, or by "cost-shifting" which is nothing more than rape that is more odious than any government "tax."

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Originally Posted by InChiefsHell View Post
So you're in favor of government officials making the call to terminate lives to save money, based on bean counting and not decency? At some point, the beans mean more than the people...seems scary as hell to me.
Except when such "decency" requires additional revenue and taxes....many of ya'all squeal like a stuck pig.

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I would not have it be a bunch of accountants, that's for damn sure, but I wouldn't just leave it to the family either.

You want to bring the person home and care for him/her there? Fine. You can pay the bill yourself? Fine. But ultimately, if someone else is paying, then someone else gets to have a voice to ensure that we curb any insanity about keeping someone plugged in forever no matter what.
THIS x eleventy bazillion
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Old 10-24-2013, 07:51 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I find politically driven death panels applied to a captive audience to be inferior to death panels based on maintaining a business in a competitive environment.
And, there you go folks...."government 'death panels' are bad; but I trust Big Business to determine when you die." At least patty is saving us the bullshit.
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Old 10-24-2013, 08:36 AM   #33
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dems for taking families rights away concerning their loved ones??

nooooo waaaaaaay.
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Old 10-24-2013, 09:01 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by stevieray View Post
dems for taking families rights away concerning their loved ones??

nooooo waaaaaaay.
Tea party dweebs for stealing money from other folks to prolong death and suffering of a loved one they, themselves, cannot afford to pay for....

noooo waaaaaaaay.
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Old 10-24-2013, 09:05 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
Tea party dweebs for stealing money from other folks to prolong death and suffering of a loved one they, themselves, cannot afford to pay for....

noooo waaaaaaaay.


kind of like you stealing from the taxpayer ,so you can play Rush Limbaugh on the web.
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Old 10-24-2013, 09:32 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by stevieray View Post


kind of like you stealing from the taxpayer ,so you can play Rush Limbaugh on the web.
Not all of us work an 8-4 schedule, stevie...you know what they say about assuming...
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:13 AM   #37
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No, I didn't. The mistake you and others are making is applying this only to taxpayer funded healthcare. Even with private policies, all paticipants are paying for that person's decision to keep someone in a vegetative state (or whatever the undefined condition is that would warrant a death panel).

In a society where medical expenses are out of control, we need to take a serious look at waste. The patient's family, the hospital, and the insurance company all have motives for how that decision is made.

It's not politically correct, but this is an area to cut expense. Make a set of standards that determine the line in the sand. Then if a person wants life preserved beyond that point, they pay out of pocket, or they pay to be in a separate insurance pool that anticipates that cost.

It's a sensational topic that no one wants to take on, but if you but a number on the difference in cost, how big would that number be and how many people would willingly pay it?
Yes, we need a series of boxes to check... to determine who lives and who dies. Fantastic. End of life decisions can't be determined by a line in the sand or a bunch of boxes to check.

It's insurance for a reason...
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:22 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Mile High Mania View Post
Yes, we need a series of boxes to check... to determine who lives and who dies. Fantastic. End of life decisions can't be determined by a line in the sand or a bunch of boxes to check.

It's insurance for a reason...
How do you think insurance will do it under Obamacare?
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:25 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Mile High Mania View Post
Yes, we need a series of boxes to check... to determine who lives and who dies. Fantastic. End of life decisions can't be determined by a line in the sand or a bunch of boxes to check.

It's insurance for a reason...
oldandslow is right when he says that your private insurance has the equivalent of a death panel today. You can't specify in advance exactly what treatments will be covered for every possible illness so some of those decisions have to develop over time.

And frankly, we need some level of death panel cost containment or health care costs will bankrupt us all. We can't keep developing new, extremely expensive but miraculous treatments and making them available to anyone who wants to use them. There has to be a line drawn between the affordable, reasonably effective treatments that were cutting edge 5 or 10 years ago and the bleeding edge, hyper-costly treatments just coming online today. The former should be covered by common insurance and the latter should only be available if you can bring the resources to the table yourself until the cost comes down low enough to make it more generally available.

The big question to answer is where do you want these death panels to exist. Do we want the government monopoly making these decisions for everyone with questionable recourse to the courts or do we want a competitive environment where different insurance companies make independent decisions in competition with each other (one might be more strict but offer cheaper coverage while the other might allow more treatments at a higher premium cost) while courts provide recourse to prevent private sector abuse?
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:38 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
....

The big question to answer is where do you want these death panels to exist. Do we want the government monopoly making these decisions for everyone with questionable recourse to the courts or do we want a competitive environment where different insurance companies make independent decisions in competition with each other (one might be more strict but offer cheaper coverage while the other might allow more treatments at a higher premium cost) while courts provide recourse to prevent private sector abuse?
While that could be great news for insurance folks, ambulance chasing lawyers, the healthcare "industry" (i.e., lots of people who stand to profit handsomely on the dime of dying people and taxpayers)....it's not good news for average folks--you know, the folks who our government is supposed to be most interested in.
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:41 AM   #41
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Call them death panels or not, Under ObamaCare they have a screen to hide behind.

The Government is dictating the profit level of the Insurance Company. And They define the rules of the game. Both Govt and Insurance companies want to cut end of like expenditures. Govt for tax reasons and deficit, Insurance companies so they can be profitable. So they will establish who gets what and you can bet its all going to be on a checklist...if this, then that. Death Panels are going to be involved more than ever.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:04 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
While that could be great news for insurance folks, ambulance chasing lawyers, the healthcare "industry" (i.e., lots of people who stand to profit handsomely on the dime of dying people and taxpayers)....it's not good news for average folks--you know, the folks who our government is supposed to be most interested in.
Sometimes the things you say make me want to euthanize all the teachers to save our children.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:09 AM   #43
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JFC, how do so many of you still have no idea of how insurance companies actually work?
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:08 PM   #44
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As usual if you have good people on "death panels" you tend to get good results. Defining good people as ones who are trying to maximize coverage for treatable diseases and therefore the general health against total collected revenue. As opposed to maximizing profit from the revenue and meeting the needs of a splintered or selected populations, avoiding risky populations. And since private insurance companies for years now have access to personal medical files left alone that is what will happen under capitalistic processes.
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Old 10-24-2013, 01:26 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by tiptap View Post
As usual if you have good people on "death panels" you tend to get good results. Defining good people as ones who are trying to maximize coverage for treatable diseases and therefore the general health against total collected revenue. As opposed to maximizing profit from the revenue and meeting the needs of a splintered or selected populations, avoiding risky populations. And since private insurance companies for years now have access to personal medical files left alone that is what will happen under capitalistic processes.
Where you going to find good people to work in government?
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