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Old 11-04-2013, 04:16 PM  
Rain Man Rain Man is offline
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Out of State Contributions

So we have an election tomorrow in Colorado, and one of the issues on the ballot is a massive tax increase to give money to K-12 schools. It's got all sorts of groundbreaking features, such as:

a) the largest state tax increase in Colorado history
b) the introduction of an income tax to fund schools, on top of property taxes
c) the introduction of a progressive income tax in Colorado that taxes higher incomes at a higher rate

Obviously, it's pretty controversial.

What really annoys me is that we heard recently that the mayor of New York (Bloomberg) gave $1 million to the campaign to pass this tax, and the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation gave $1 million to the campaign to pass this tax.

They're both promoting it as education reform, and whatever. The reason doesn't matter.

But why do we allow out-of-state interests who will not pay the tax to get involved and help get the new tax passed? I've got some rich guy in New York and some rich guy in Washington saying, "Well, hey. Let's get those people in Colorado to pay more taxes." Is there some rationale for doing this that I don't understand?
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:22 PM   #16
Prison Bitch Prison Bitch is offline
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
So. Doesn't make it right in a federalist representative system.
The question here is whether actors in other states can or should have the right to affect others. The Constitution is clear there's no "wall of separation" amongst the states. There are plenty of Federal laws that get passed that take precedence over the desires of any county or state and it's in the Constitution.
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:23 PM   #17
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think of this as trickle down economics /rich crooks from both sides but are always in agreement on everything
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:25 PM   #18
Garcia Bronco Garcia Bronco is offline
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Originally Posted by Rain Man View Post
I voted for the marijuana taxes because I can't believe it's even a question. If someone is selling lumber, they get taxed. If someone is selling cupcakes, they get taxed. If the potheads want marijuana to be available for retail sale, it should face retail taxes.

My only question, which I've never heard the answer to, is whether the basic sales tax is a given and this is an additional sin tax. It doesn't matter to me since I think it should be sin taxed, but I haven't heard an explanation.

And the wholesale tax, as I understand it, is somewhat of an impact tax. Having a bunch of marijuana floating around is going to create some problems and having tax money from producers to mitigate it is better than raising my property tax or income tax to do it.

On the school tax, it's just excessive. Between this and property taxes, my personal bill for the public school system would range between $300 and $500 PER MONTH, depending on my company income. Add to that the precedents of a new income tax and a progressive tax, and it's a non-starter for me. They got greedy by asking too much.
I've no problems taxing the herb, but the rates imo are regressive and industrial hemp shouldn't be taxed like that across the board.

Your currently pay sales tax when you buy herb just like any other medicine.
66 was also a non-starter for me either.
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:29 PM   #19
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
The question here is whether actors in other states can or should have the right to affect others. The Constitution is clear there's no "wall of separation" amongst the states.
Um, that wouldn't be the right reference anyway. It's not set up in such a manner. There is the Tenth Amendment.

Quote:
There are plenty of Federal laws that get passed that take precedence over the desires of any county or state and it's in the Constitution.
So the heck what! That's not my point.

That's like saying because the Federal govt has usurped much of what is suppose to remain with the states makes it okay, legal or justified. It doesn't. That's what you need to understand about my argument and general position whether you agree with it or not.

Your position is a perfect example of people justifying bad precedents and the continued swallowing up of the states and destroying federalism. It also proves that our federal govt is not able to restrain it's own power and hires judges that cannot control their own and the other branches power.

The way it is set up by actual language in the document is that the feds handle certain things and the states handle certain things. That's the jurisdiction of that state which is guaranteed a republican govt in the document too, which means the public via representatives in that area and on that issue.
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:31 PM   #20
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They just want what's best for your kids so get out your crowbar and pry open that wallet. You don't have kids, you say? Tee hee.

Seriously, that would be pretty annoying.
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:34 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Um, that wouldn't be the right reference anyway. It's not set up in such a manner. There is the Tenth Amendment.
Do you know what the 10th Amendment says?
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:36 PM   #22
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
Do you know what the 10th Amendment says?
Yup!

Do you know what Madison said on this?
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:37 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Yup!

Do you know what Madison said on this?
I don't think you do know.
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:40 PM   #24
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Again, just because the Supreme Court rarely declares laws unconstitutional for violating the Tenth Amendment, doesn't make it right.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
May I ask what part of the italicized portion you don't understand, PB?
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:42 PM   #25
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Ahem!

The Federalist No. 45
Alleged Danger From the Powers of the Union to the State Governments Considered

James Madison January 26, 1788
The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:43 PM   #26
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I don't understand the part, "not delegated to the United States". What exactly isn't delegated? What in the Constitution is the United States forbidden from doing to the states?
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:44 PM   #27
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PB, that's where my communication ends with you on this topic. Your Constitutional arguments are usually weak due to your lack of knowledge of originalism. I'll just add, that this is another reason why I favor repeal of the 17th and have state legislatures choose their senators. Too much out of state money which made it a more corrupt process, overriding the people of a state.

And one place I'd like to add an amendment is disallowing carpetbagging out-of-state candidates to move to a state just to run in their election for the federal senate.
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:47 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
PB, that's where my communication ends with you on this topic. Your Constitutional arguments are usually weak due to your lack of knowledge of originalism.
I think you're upset (justifiably so) that the 10th Amendment is a meaningless add-on to the Constitution. Put in there so the states rights folks would ratify it. Once the Commerce Clause was put into the actual Articles, it made the 10th Amendment worthless.


Incidentally I do wish the states had more rights like you wish. The signers should've been more careful reading what they were ratifying.
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:51 PM   #29
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I don't understand the part, "not delegated to the United States". What exactly isn't delegated? What in the Constitution is the United States forbidden from doing to the states?
Basically, the Constitution lays out what the Federal Government can do. Like raise an army and navy, maintain a national currency, handle foreign relations, levy tariffs, handle disputes between states etc. Anything else not in the Constitution was relegated to the States and if they didn't have it in their Constitution to the people themselves.

So, while the Federal Government can accept a state into the Union it can not kick one out. The founders idea was that the people in each locality would make their own rules that suited them. The most important political office, the one that had the most effect on your life was supposed to be the one most local with the federal government having little or no concern in your everyday life.
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:53 PM   #30
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Rain Man it is a pretty common practice now a days unfortunately. There is alot of outside money going into the VA governors race on both sides, ton of outside money went into the Prop 8 vote in CA etc..
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