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Old 11-04-2013, 04:16 PM  
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Out of State Contributions

So we have an election tomorrow in Colorado, and one of the issues on the ballot is a massive tax increase to give money to K-12 schools. It's got all sorts of groundbreaking features, such as:

a) the largest state tax increase in Colorado history
b) the introduction of an income tax to fund schools, on top of property taxes
c) the introduction of a progressive income tax in Colorado that taxes higher incomes at a higher rate

Obviously, it's pretty controversial.

What really annoys me is that we heard recently that the mayor of New York (Bloomberg) gave $1 million to the campaign to pass this tax, and the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation gave $1 million to the campaign to pass this tax.

They're both promoting it as education reform, and whatever. The reason doesn't matter.

But why do we allow out-of-state interests who will not pay the tax to get involved and help get the new tax passed? I've got some rich guy in New York and some rich guy in Washington saying, "Well, hey. Let's get those people in Colorado to pay more taxes." Is there some rationale for doing this that I don't understand?
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:53 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
Basically, the Constitution lays out what the Federal Government can do. Like raise an army and navy, maintain a national currency, handle foreign relations, levy tariffs, handle disputes between states etc. Anything else not in the Constitution was relegated to the States and if they didn't have it in their Constitution to the people themselves.

So, while the Federal Government can accept a state into the Union it can not kick one out. The founders idea was that the people in each locality would make their own rules that suited them. The most important political office, the one that had the most effect on your life was supposed to be the one most local with the federal government having little or no concern in your everyday life.
Exactly!
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:58 PM   #32
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When it comes to the people of a state bearing the taxation, it should be up to them to finance their candidates and spend that money. That's a jurisdiction issue. It's like with the Federal govt, the tax power was left in the people's house for a reason--they were closest to the people.

The more we nationalize issues of an everyday affair, the more contention there will be because there's just too many people with different concerns and values to have a one size-fits-all solution to a multitude of issues.
Isn't politics already contentious enough without adding to it?
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:58 PM   #33
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I think you're upset (justifiably so) that the 10th Amendment is a meaningless add-on to the Constitution. Put in there so the states rights folks would ratify it. Once the Commerce Clause was put into the actual Articles, it made the 10th Amendment worthless.


Incidentally I do wish the states had more rights like you wish. The signers should've been more careful reading what they were ratifying.
No, the founders got it right. The Supreme court got it wrong. The purpose of the commerce clause was to basically make the states play nice with one another when it comes to trade. You can't have say New York place a tariff on goods from South Carolina. Basically, they wanted the US to be one big free trade zone.

It is not the power to regulate any commerce that may cross state lines or could effect commerce across state lines.
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Old 11-04-2013, 06:00 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
Basically, the Constitution lays out what the Federal Government can do. Like raise an army and navy, maintain a national currency, handle foreign relations, levy tariffs, handle disputes between states etc. Anything else not in the Constitution was relegated to the States and if they didn't have it in their Constitution to the people themselves.

So, while the Federal Government can accept a state into the Union it can not kick one out. The founders idea was that the people in each locality would make their own rules that suited them. The most important political office, the one that had the most effect on your life was supposed to be the one most local with the federal government having little or no concern in your everyday life.
I wish it worked that way. I can respect your view here. But let's take the discussion here that I took issue with: Direck's comment he would close the state off to outside contributions. That's a clear violation of the Commerce Clause and it's not even debateable. Commerce isn't just trade, it's also the navigation of folks between the states. Since you can't stop a Kansan from entering Colorado, how could you stop his money from doing so?


We're probably getting too broad in this conversation so I wanted to tie it to the comments. Specifically, Direck's "I think that...." method which all too many Americans use.
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Old 11-04-2013, 06:04 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
No, the founders got it right. The Supreme court got it wrong. The purpose of the commerce clause was to basically make the states play nice with one another when it comes to trade. You can't have say New York place a tariff on goods from South Carolina. Basically, they wanted the US to be one big free trade zone.

It is not the power to regulate any commerce that may cross state lines or could effect commerce across state lines.
And even this clause was expanded beyond the original intent by the SC. The issue being affected here doesn't even fall under the commerce clause because this topic's issue not even an enumerated power.

Let's not forget, that Justice Robert's has recently dealt a blow to the commerce clause when the ACA ruling came out. He has opined that there is limit on that clause, whereas before we were barreling down a flood gate opened up.

I can't possibly understand how PB thinks he's a conservative or limited govt type when it comes his view of the Constitution. As to the signers being more careful on signing, well much of the debate at the original Con-Con was all about such powers of the state's being taken away. Not every state ratified it; not even Patrick Henry and this was one reason why a Bill of Rights was added. But then we had those pesky Federalists in there like Hamilton, who really wanted to take more powers later regarding the ratification is a mere stepping stone to their plans.
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Old 11-04-2013, 06:07 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
No, the founders got it right. The Supreme court got it wrong. The purpose of the commerce clause was to basically make the states play nice with one another when it comes to trade. You can't have say New York place a tariff on goods from South Carolina. Basically, they wanted the US to be one big free trade zone.

It is not the power to regulate any commerce that may cross state lines or could effect commerce across state lines.
Congress can regulate any commerce they deem necessary between the states.
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Old 11-04-2013, 06:13 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
I wish it worked that way. I can respect your view here. But let's take the discussion here that I took issue with: Direck's comment he would close the state off to outside contributions. That's a clear violation of the Commerce Clause and it's not even debateable. Commerce isn't just trade, it's also the navigation of folks between the states. Since you can't stop a Kansan from entering Colorado, how could you stop his money from doing so?


We're probably getting too broad in this conversation so I wanted to tie it to the comments. Specifically, Direck's "I think that...." method which all too many Americans use.
Alaska passed a law that restricted candidates to not receive more than $20,000 from outside money and it was upheld by their Supreme Court.

http://doa.alaska.gov/apoc/faqs/faq-...on-limits.html
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Old 11-04-2013, 06:15 PM   #38
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Rain Man it is a pretty common practice now a days unfortunately. There is alot of outside money going into the VA governors race on both sides, ton of outside money went into the Prop 8 vote in CA etc..
I suspect it is common. The key question is why. Is the outside money purely philosophically oriented? Or are they businesses who are trying to curry favor?

There may be some legitimate reasons for an outsider to donate money, I guess. I know that I donated money to candidates in Adams County, Colorado, even though I don't live there, because I knew what a corrupt cesspool their leadership was, and wanted to help the people who were trying to fix it. I guess you could argue that I have business interests there, but my real goal was ethical reform.

What annoyed me, though, is that a few millionaires in the state came in and donated triple my amount to the opposition just because of their political party. They knew nothing about the local issues and they also didn't live in Adams County, so they unwittingly supported corruption precisely because they weren't local and didn't know the issues. It's maddening.

I suspect that the Founding Fathers were not thinking about large corporations and rich foundations making political contributions. It just doesn't seem right.
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Old 11-04-2013, 06:16 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by dirk digler View Post
Alaska passed a law that restricted candidates to not receive more than $20,000 from outside money and it was upheld by their Supreme Court.

http://doa.alaska.gov/apoc/faqs/faq-...on-limits.html
Okay, now we're talking.

Anyone care to argue why this is a bad thing? Because I sure think it would be a good thing.

I guess, though, that to argue with myself, the challenge is in enforcement. It's very easy to launder money in political campaigns. You just rent an apartment or start a nonprofit and channel it through there. Or you give your money to an ally in the state and they "make a contribution".
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Old 11-04-2013, 06:17 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
I think you're upset (justifiably so) that the 10th Amendment is a meaningless add-on to the Constitution. Put in there so the states rights folks would ratify it. Once the Commerce Clause was put into the actual Articles, it made the 10th Amendment worthless.


Incidentally I do wish the states had more rights like you wish. The signers should've been more careful reading what they were ratifying.
Good lord. Where did you learn about the constitution? Your understanding of the Commerce Clause is very progressive... as in so progressive that it would have been laughed at outside of radical circles prior to 1930 or so.
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Old 11-04-2013, 06:19 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk digler View Post
Alaska passed a law that restricted candidates to not receive more than $20,000 from outside money and it was upheld by their Supreme Court.

http://doa.alaska.gov/apoc/faqs/faq-...on-limits.html
Nice find. I'll just bet there will be someone who would try to sue up to the SC!
Gotta nationalize everything these days! I would hope the Robert's court would send it back.
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Old 11-04-2013, 06:19 PM   #42
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Okay, now we're talking.

Anyone care to argue why this is a bad thing? Because I sure think it would be a good thing.

I guess, though, that to argue with myself, the challenge is in enforcement. It's very easy to launder money in political campaigns. You just rent an apartment or start a nonprofit and channel it through there. Or you give your money to an ally in the state and they "make a contribution".
In principle maybe but this isn't a candidate we're talking about.
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Old 11-04-2013, 06:20 PM   #43
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Good lord. Where did you learn about the constitution? Your understanding of the Commerce Clause is very progressive... as in so progressive that it would have been laughed at outside of radical circles prior to 1930 or so.
Even I almost said, he sounded progressive-left on this.
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Old 11-04-2013, 06:24 PM   #44
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I suspect that the Founding Fathers were not thinking about large corporations and rich foundations making political contributions. It just doesn't seem right.
Even if they didn't, had the Constitution been followed and upheld consistently power needs would be much more diffused. So such a thing would be less of a problem.

Don't forget Bloomberg is essentially a socialist and thus, believes in uniformity nationally. I am shocked at Gates. He may know computers but his understanding of our system is just bad. Jobs was the opposite. He didn't get wrapped up much with govt things...unless he had to for his own interests. He was more libertarian leaning.
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Old 11-04-2013, 06:26 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
Basically, the Constitution lays out what the Federal Government can do. Like raise an army and navy, maintain a national currency, handle foreign relations, levy tariffs, handle disputes between states etc. Anything else not in the Constitution was relegated to the States and if they didn't have it in their Constitution to the people themselves.

So, while the Federal Government can accept a state into the Union it can not kick one out. The founders idea was that the people in each locality would make their own rules that suited them. The most important political office, the one that had the most effect on your life was supposed to be the one most local with the federal government having little or no concern in your everyday life.
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