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Old 11-24-2013, 03:54 AM  
jaa1025 jaa1025 is offline
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Why are you a republican or democrat (or independent)?

Just our of curiousity.

Is it because that's how you were raised and strictly vote along the party lines no matter what? Are you an intelligent voter that pays attention to what's happening with this country?

I vote republican because they stand for family values, economy growth, small businesses growth which is essential for the economy, and they respect the protected right of religion and right to bear arms. I also believe in states rights over big government.

What do democrats vote democrat for? Free phones, free handouts, rights to kill babies, racism, big brother controlling every facet of your life? Please explain your intentions democrats?

Because the democratic party that was once respected is no longer the democratic party. Democrats from 50 years ago would be republican.

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Old 11-24-2013, 09:45 PM   #31
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My father's family were/are all conservative R's, my mother's family were/are all liberal D's. I got to see how stupid both sides are. I'm an independent. Currently registered Libertarian and have been for more than a decade.
Interesting. My mom told me certain neighbors of hers had this split and all they did was argue.

My mom was the liberal. My dad never spoke politics. Who he voted for in 1980 and 1984 was the big secret that could not be mentioned. I never knew why. I found out this year that he voted for Reagan. My mom hated Reagan.
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Old 11-24-2013, 09:50 PM   #32
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I think the OP was trying to ask: What is your diagnosis, and when and how did you acquire your mental illness.....
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Old 11-24-2013, 09:56 PM   #33
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This is actually an oxymoron when you think about it. On one hand you are fiscally conservative with your own $$ and also want your govt to be fiscally conservative in their fiscal policy BUT your support for liberal social policy that always leads to funding these programs that have a never ending and increasing tax rates that always come from our back pockets. I hear people say this aaaaaall the time and then I just shake my head

Think about it Kat man !!
No that is wrong actually. Fiscally conservative means you don't want the government wasting money and funding programs that are not needed.

Socially liberal means that you don't want the government to enforce morality and puritanism on the population.

Fiscally conservative and socially liberal is the enlightenment liberal position ie todays libertarians.
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Old 11-24-2013, 10:12 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Chiefshrink View Post
This is actually an oxymoron when you think about it. On one hand you are fiscally conservative with your own $$ and also want your govt to be fiscally conservative in their fiscal policy BUT your support for liberal social policy that always leads to funding these programs that have a never ending and increasing tax rates that always come from our back pockets. I hear people say this aaaaaall the time and then I just shake my head

Think about it Kat man !!
I've run into this a few times too, since I've described myself as that a few times by mistake. I think "social" refers to social issues (often associated with religion) like abortion, gay rights, etc.... It probably has less to do with socialism.
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Old 11-24-2013, 10:12 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
No that is wrong actually. Fiscally conservative means you don't want the government wasting money and funding programs that are not needed.

Socially liberal means that you don't want the government to enforce morality and puritanism on the population.

Fiscally conservative and socially liberal is the enlightenment liberal position ie todays libertarians.
Gonna have to disagree that it's classical liberalism, what you seem to be calling enlightenment liberal. Our Founders, men of the Enlightenment allowed states to define some morality...in fact that was one of the roles of the state.

The same men also warned of lack of virtue resulting in loss of freedom too. Too few rules, will eventually result in more government if the society breaks down. Some behaviors do spread and do harm others. Say drugs breaking up families and harming children. I think this has to be decided on a case by case basis at the state level, whereas implementation would show what the results were. Other states could then follow or not follow based on those results.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying a state govt cannot be tyrannical either, it's something one has to watch for at every level.
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:41 PM   #36
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The founding fathers would of seen drug addiction or alcoholism as a moral failing, not something the state should be jailing people for. There were no laws forbidding the taking or selling of drugs until 1914 and the US government did the same end around the Constitution that they did later with the National Firearms act. First, you make people get a license and then simply not giving out any licenses or making it incredibly difficult to do.

The virtue was of the individual to guard his or her liberty closely because they knew there were always people looking to take it.
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:48 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
No that is wrong actually. Fiscally conservative means you don't want the government wasting money and funding programs that are not needed.

Socially liberal means that you don't want the government to enforce morality and puritanism on the population.

Fiscally conservative and socially liberal is the enlightenment liberal position ie todays libertarians.
1. Like Medicaid,Obummercare, among many other unnecessary social programs, okay, I can go with that.

2. Better look in the mirror as to who really IS legislating morality 'these days' Gloucester my man !!

3. Fiscal conservative and social liberal to me is nothing more than a RINO who doesn't get the long term effect and connection of allowing the debt ceiling to rise and not standing against moral decay that eventually eats into our back pockets(spending thus higher taxes) to the point of bankrupting our country all because they want to go along to get along and further their careers because they know who(Progressives a la Marxists) controls the media,education system and the courts. So they play ball( a word called 'bi-partisan' at all costs) thus F'ing "We the People" in the long run. Oh they talk fiscal responsibility but have never lived it let alone voted for it. And more importantly they have to be liked by everyone. Their moral compass(if they have one) will always point to what is least conflictual especially when it comes to social issues and they know they better be for homos,deadbabies and anti-guns or they are F'd in their eyes with the Marxist press and then they get Alinskyed(demagogued) . These people HATE conflict with a passion and are 'cowards' to the core and will stand for NOTHING when push comes to shove and will always side with what's popular for the moment. The only time you might see them support conservative causes is when it's politically convenient. Remember when the Tea Party first came about ? Oh every RINO was on board cheering UNTIL the TEA Party started making head way and then you saw the cowardly RINOs jump ship because they MUST be liked by Progressive(a la Marxist) narrative that 'rules the day' ! Obviously I have just described the fiscal conservative/social liberal politician. Now the fiscal conservative/social liberal voter is much the same way wanting to be able to keep the majority of their $$ but must be liked at all cost and will follow the Progressive social narrative(pro-homo,deadbabies and anti-gun) to avoid conflict.

Yeah Gloucester this 'fiscal conservative/social liberal label is very enlightening for sure
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Old 11-25-2013, 12:13 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Chiefshrink View Post
1. Like Medicaid,Obummercare, among many other unnecessary social programs, okay, I can go with that.
Cutting those would be the fiscally conservative part.

Quote:
2. Better look in the mirror as to who really IS legislating morality 'these days' Gloucester my man !!
Both parties like to stoke the culture war. It keeps them from having to talk about things like debt, an overactive and expensive military, entangling foreign relations, a bad economy, and ruinous regulation. The culture war is a distraction. Look, after the Obamacare disaster what bill does Republican Lindsay Graham put out? An abortion bill. One party is stupid and the other is evil. They switch those hats often.

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3. Fiscal conservative and social liberal to me is nothing more than a RINO who doesn't get the long term effect and connection of allowing the debt ceiling
A fiscal conservative would be against that.

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to rise and not standing against moral decay
Don't care what bad habits you have or what you do as long as 1) You are not violating anybodies rights, person, or property and 2) I don't have to pay for the potential consequences of your risky behavior.

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that eventually eats into our back pockets(spending thus higher taxes) to the point of bankrupting our country all because they want to go along to get along and further their careers because they know who(Progressives a la Marxists) controls the media,education system and the courts. So they play ball( a word called 'bi-partisan' at all costs) thus F'ing "We the People" in the long run. Oh they talk fiscal responsibility but have never lived it let alone voted for it.
Yeah, the socons, neocons, conservatives, and Republicans did such a great job of fiscal responsibility when they had the Presidency, Senate, and House. Not to mention the civil liberty trampling Patriot Act.

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And more importantly they have to be liked by everyone. Their moral compass(if they have one) will always point to what is least conflictual especially when it comes to social issues and they know they better be for homos,deadbabies and anti-guns or they are F'd in their eyes with the Marxist press and then they get Alinskyed(demagogued) .
Everybody has a right to have an opinion on what is moral or not. The mistake you are making is believing that it is moral to use the force of government to make people conform. Initiating violence and coercion is never a moral action. You also establish the precedent that people who oppose you morality will use the violence and coercion of government on you.

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These people HATE conflict with a passion and are 'cowards' to the core and will stand for NOTHING when push comes to shove and will always side with what's popular for the moment. The only time you might see them support conservative causes is when it's politically convenient. Remember when the Tea Party first came about ? Oh every RINO was on board cheering UNTIL the TEA Party started making head way and then you saw the cowardly RINOs jump ship because they MUST be liked by Progressive(a la Marxist) narrative that 'rules the day' ! Obviously I have just described the fiscal conservative/social liberal politician.
No, a socially liberal/fiscally conservative politician would be someone like Gary Johnson, Justin Amash, Ron Paul, Rand Paul, and Ron Wyden. They are not perfect but are much better then the majority of the political class.

Those politicians frequently take stances that are at odds with their parties leadership.

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Now the fiscal conservative/social liberal voter is much the same way wanting to be able to keep the majority of their $$ but must be liked at all cost and will follow the Progressive social narrative(pro-homo,deadbabies and anti-gun) to avoid conflict.
Your fiscally conservative/socially liberal voter if they were politically astute would be voting Libertarian. Its also not a pro or anti anything. Its a 'none of your business' philosophy.

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Yeah Gloucester this 'fiscal conservative/social liberal label is very enlightening for sure
Except you have no clue what it actually means.
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Old 11-25-2013, 07:39 AM   #39
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I think the practice of abortion is absolutely disgusting. I don't approve of late-term abortions. Early-term abortions... I think that's disgusting too, but understand it in instances of rape and incest. I also am not naive enough to believe that abortions won't happen just because they're made illegal, often times in even more disgusting ways. I also struggle with whether this is something that government should be legislating -- I don't think it's necessarily my business to decide. Ultimately, I think this is a states rights decision.
I don't know how you can reconcile this mushy position with your Catholicism. Would you ever say you don't think it's your position to decide whether murder should be allowed?

FWIW, your position is pretty similar to mine, but I'm not a believing Catholic.
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Old 11-25-2013, 07:44 AM   #40
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"Social liberal and fiscal conservative" means different things to different people. That's why you guys aren't in agreement.
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Old 11-25-2013, 08:51 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
The founding fathers would of seen drug addiction or alcoholism as a moral failing, not something the state should be jailing people for.
Well, this is true but this is the type of law that can easily change--at the local level too. Drugs and certain kinds we have today were not around at the time of our founding. Not in the quantity we have today where people sell them. People do get hurt.

Drug addiction was a big problem just from medical use after the civil war for veterans...but hidden.

Of course there are other problems that lead people to tune out. IMO illiteracy is one because it can prevent success in life. But that is govt induced due to a rotten education system with poor methods and focus on political indoctrination instead. So perhaps if that wasn't happening then drug addiction would be less.

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There were no laws forbidding the taking or selling of drugs until 1914 and the US government did the same end around the Constitution that they did later with the National Firearms act.
Also true, but it's not an end run around the Constitution for states or local areas to have laws regarding them. Most issues such as order and morality, preferably public morality, were left to the states.

Now, such laws can change as morality and lifestyles change but it's not against the Constitution for laws to reflect the values of the local people. All such laws are based on someone's morality.

Unless you believe in the over-expansion of the 14th Amendment, which destroyed federalism. That, however, wasn't passed until 80 years later due to the effects of the Civil War. So it wasn't our Founders or Framers that did that. Even that was never intended to be used the way it is today, when it was ratified--which was done at gun point. Not exactly legit to use duress.

Our Framers or Founders weren't exactly libertarian as some claim. They were regarding the Federal govt but not otherwise. Many of them were more conservative. States were allowed to even have established churches then. Jefferson even called for public education in his state.
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The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the Federal Government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State Governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will for the most part be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects, which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties and properties of the people; and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.
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First, you make people get a license and then simply not giving out any licenses or making it incredibly difficult to do.
Licensing is done by the states. It's not the role of the federal govt.

Look, you can have a state that governs as a libertarian which is allowed too, but it's not against the Constitution if they don't either. A state can go too far too, like any govt. It's just up to the people there to call for such changes and they will. Still, the "ordinary course of affairs" were to be dealt with by the states.

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The virtue was of the individual to guard his or her liberty closely because they knew there were always people looking to take it.
Liberty does not grant a right to harm oneself as a given. Liberty does not grant a right to sell dangerous addicting drugs that can kill or lead to widespread addictions whereby the family/social order breaks down. Same for doctors prescribing any combination that kill. Some drugs sure, they don't lead to that. Some bad behaviors spread and lead to other effects that eventually harm others. It's just not always direct. It has to be examined based on what is happening in an area. When such behaviors do affect other areas, then people call for more govt. I forget which Founder said it but one said liberty is for a "virtuous people."

The reason there have have been conservative laws on certain behaviors in states is because it reflected the values of their religious demographic. So most didn't have a problem with such laws. What happened was the morality changed. It wasn't unConstitutional.

Like I said on a case by case level and by state and locality. As things change these laws can be revised. But people will eventually clamor for more laws if too little personal discipline exists so it can lead to more oppressive govt. There just has to be a balance. Where that balance get decided is what is the issue for me. Hence, I am a social moderate.

To me a Libertarian argument that's based on the Constitution would be the Federal Constitution as originally designed is fairly libertarian--not completely libertarian. Then at the state level to have libertarianism each state governs that way.
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Old 11-25-2013, 09:05 AM   #42
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"Social liberal and fiscal conservative" means different things to different people. That's why you guys aren't in agreement.
It shouldn't. Some people have confused ideas because they don't understand it.
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Old 11-25-2013, 09:07 AM   #43
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Old 11-25-2013, 09:08 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
No that is wrong actually. Fiscally conservative means you don't want the government wasting money and funding programs that are not needed.

Socially liberal means that you don't want the government to enforce morality and puritanism on the population.

Fiscally conservative and socially liberal is the enlightenment liberal position ie todays libertarians.
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
I've run into this a few times too, since I've described myself as that a few times by mistake. I think "social" refers to social issues (often associated with religion) like abortion, gay rights, etc.... It probably has less to do with socialism.
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Old 11-25-2013, 09:09 AM   #45
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Depends on what you mean by advance. Toward socialism?

I'm for a meritocracy or the closet thing to one.
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“We do not believe in aggressive or preventive war. Such war is the weapon of dictators, not of free democratic countries like the United States.”~ Truman, Sept 1, 1950
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BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.
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