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Old 12-09-2013, 06:03 PM  
ChiefsandO'sfan ChiefsandO'sfan is offline
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U.S government lost us 10 billion in the GM Deal

General Motors is free from the stigma of public ownership almost five years to the day after Congress voted to give emergency funding to GM and Chrysler, but the debate will drag on through history over the cost and benefits.

The government recouped about $10 billion less than the $49.5 billion in aid it provided GM. But a study released Monday estimated that the U.S. would have lost 2.6 million more jobs in 2009 and 1.5 million more jobs in 2010 had the two automakers failed.

U.S. Treasury Secretary Jack Lew confirmed late Monday that the government no longer owns any GM stock. The exit comes nearly four months sooner than the Treasury Department estimated this year.

As expected, President Barack Obama defended the historic intervention, which began under his predecessor, President George W. Bush.

“When I took office, the American auto industry was on the verge of collapse,” the president said. “GM and Chrysler were on the brink of failure, threatening to take suppliers, distributors and entire communities down with them. In the midst of what was already the worst recession since the Great Depression, another one million Americans were in danger of losing their jobs.

“As president, I refused to walk away from American workers and an iconic American industry. But in exchange for rescuing and retooling GM and Chrysler with taxpayer dollars, we demanded responsibility and results.”

“The U.S. Treasury's ownership exit closes just one chapter in GM's ongoing turnaround story,” GM CEO Dan Akerson said in a statement. “We will always be grateful for the second chance extended to us, and we are doing our best to make the most of it.”

Was it worth it?
The study, was compiled by the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, also estimated that by rescuing GM and Chrysler, the government “saved or avoided the loss of” $105 billion in lost taxes and social services such as unemployment insurance and food stamps.

Neither company contributed to the study.

GM North America President Mark Reuss said the rescue was necessary.

“If you look at … what this did and what it prevented, those are the facts,” Reuss told reporters Monday. “I feel good about that. There’s been tens of thousands of people who can now put food on the table.”

Reuss said the government’s exit from GM stock is a boost to the “pride and morale” of the company’s employees.

“I think that’s a big deal,” he said. “I’m not talking about markets or stock price or anything else. I’m talking about internally. This has been a long, hard road with no repeat customers and the label of ‘Government Motors.’ ”

The government’s exit also removes restrictions on how much GM could pay its top 25 executives, limits that Akerson and Reuss said hurt the automaker’s ability to retain talented leaders and attract new ones from the outside.

But Michael LaFaive, director of fiscal policy for the conservative Mackinac Center for Public Policy, said the free market might have absorbed the impact of GM and Chrysler collapsing.

“Even under a Chapter 7 liquidation, the economy doesn’t necessarily lose in the long run,” LaFaive said. “Other companies, be they Ford or Honda, swoop in and pick up assets at a discount, which they re-employ elsewhere — and taxpayers aren’t on the hook, and cars get made more efficiently and inexpensively.”

The $10-billion loss should not be dismissed, LaFaive argued.

“Those people who are getting bailed out are not getting bailed out by Monopoly money,” he said. “It’s you and I.”

Recovery would have been faster down South
Sean McAlinden, CAR senior economist and co-author of the study, said that manufacturing jobs eventually would have returned, but they would have shifted to the South, while R&D jobs migrated overseas.

“Once again, the results for upper Midwest states such as Michigan, Ohio and Indiana of this relocation would have been severe in the long term,” the study concluded. “Double-digit unemployment rates would still exist in these states today.”

McAlinden said the failures of GM and Chrysler would have triggered a massive crisis in the automotive industry supply chain that, in turn, would have caused widespread layoffs at automakers that didn’t seek government aid.

In addition to GM and Chrysler jobs, the report estimates that 90% of U.S. employees at Ford, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mercedes and BMW would been laid off for at least a year.

“When people are not working, not only does the government not collect money, it must spend money,” McAlinden said, pointing to unemployment insurance and food stamps as examples. “Short-run losses are real losses. They don’t go away in the long term. Even if the industry does come back.”

The U.S. recovered about $39 billion on the GM bailout, Treasury officials said. That included cash from GM’s November 2010 IPO, a stock buyback and gradual share sales on the open market.

The $81 billion in aid to GM, Chrysler and their lending arms was dwarfed by a total of $421.8 billion disbursed to the automakers, banks and the insurance giant AIG under the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP). Treasury said in a statement that it has recovered $432.7 billion of that TARP outlay so far.

The Treasury Department has been selling GM stock throughout the year, reducing its stake gradually to avoid disrupting the market. After the government announced last month that it expected to completely exit GM stock by the end of the year, investors have been driving the share price up to an all-time high since the IPO.

GM stock rose 1.8% to close at $40.90 Monday, after reaching $41.17, its highest post-IPO price, earlier in the day.

http://www.freep.com/article/2013120...otive-Research
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Old 12-09-2013, 07:43 PM   #16
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Whether they make a profit or not, I don't like being forced to invest without any choice.

This deal was nothing but classic cronyism, corporatism, neo-mercantilism. Iacocca should have never been bailed out, particularly since his firm even had a buyer.
You have your choice. You vote and majority rules.

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Old 12-09-2013, 07:47 PM   #17
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Here's Karen on Detroit:

She's an accountant by trade, former military, ran for congress and is a libertarian writer.
http://karendecoster.com/category/detroit

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Governor Rick Snyder recently appeared on Morning Joe, and even Joe Scarborough seemed receptive to the notion that private investors are putting their investment dollars in anarcho-Detroit with the expectation of returns.
It's one of the best times to invest is when a place hits bottom. She says the core is in an emerging renaissance.
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Old 12-09-2013, 07:47 PM   #18
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No it's not. It's entrepreneurial related and unsubsidized. Karen de Coster writes about it. She's from there. Even whites are returning.
they were trying to get the burbs back into downtown investments last year. I'm surprised to be told there is independent investment. I'll look around.
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Old 12-09-2013, 07:51 PM   #19
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they were trying to get the burbs back into downtown investments last year. I'm surprised to be told there is independent investment. I'll look around.
Check out Karen. She's from there and keeps up-to-date on the Detroit going-ons.
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:03 PM   #20
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Didn't they put that wealth in the hands of the private sector?
Yes, but only after the government skimmed off the top. So it actually cost more then 608 billion and it went to businesses that failed, businesses that didn't want the TARP funds but the government forced it on them, and businesses that didn't need the funds in the first place.

It is not the decision of individual investors to put the money where they best think it would make them profit but to the political pull and whims of politicians.
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:08 PM   #21
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Best money we ever spent.

We would currently be at over $10 billion in unemployment benefits. And still going.

Then add in the workers actually working, earning the money they put into the economy, the government, state, property and local taxes they are paying with that money from their job.

And thats just the people who didn't lose their jobs. The ones that have been hired since the bailout....... I'd like to see that money tally.

They say for every single job in the factory building cars there are 10 other jobs in support of the factory, supplying parts etc.

Even the most harden conservative has to admit this was a rousing success. When the economy was on its knees, thew worst since the great depression, this happened. Damn glad McCain didn't win. We would not have a thriving car industry in America.
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:10 PM   #22
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Best money we ever spent.

We would currently be at over $10 billion in unemployment benefits. And still going.

Then add in the workers actually working, earning the money they put into the economy, the government, state, property and local taxes they are paying with that money from their job.

And thats just the people who didn't lose their jobs. The ones that have been fired since the bailout....... I'd like to see that money tally.

They say for every single job in the factory building cars there are 10 other jobs in support of the factory, supplying parts etc.

Even the most harden conservative has to admit this wad a rousing success.
Success of nor it's not up to the federal govt to coerce individual taxpayers into an investment govt thinks is best. It's fascism and collectivism because it's all based on coercion and force. All that money should have been given back to those who contributed so they could buy what they want with their own money. That is what is done in a free country.
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:14 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
Best money we ever spent.

We would currently be at over $10 billion in unemployment benefits. And still going.

Then add in the workers actually working, earning the money they put into the economy, the government, state, property and local taxes they are paying with that money from their job.

And thats just the people who didn't lose their jobs. The ones that have been hired since the bailout....... I'd like to see that money tally.

They say for every single job in the factory building cars there are 10 other jobs in support of the factory, supplying parts etc.

Even the most harden conservative has to admit this wad a rousing success. When the eocnomy was on its knees, thew worst since the great depression, this happened. Samn glad McCain didn't win. We would not have a thriving car industry in America.
Not even if you hooked up their nutsack to a car battery.
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:16 PM   #24
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Success of nor it's not up to the federal govt to coerce individual taxpayers into an investment govt thinks is best. It's fascism and collectivism because it's all based on coercion and force. All that money should have been given back to those who contributed so they could buy what they want with their own money. That is what is done in a free country.
This is why ideologues should be locked up. MUST MAINTAIN PURITY
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:28 PM   #25
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Doesn't that mean we made 11 billion on TARP?
The money that went to the Banks...........we made $26 Billion in profit.

We still have another $40-50 Billion in AIG and home loans that we will make money on. How much profit and if we get the remaining $25 billion back really depends on AIG.
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:34 PM   #26
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The money that went to the Banks...........we made $26 Billion in profit.

We still have another $40-50 Billion in AIG and home loans that we will make money on. How much profit and if we get the remaining $25 billion back really depends on AIG.
according to what he posted (and I'm not familiar with the site so I don't know how reliable it is but am taking it at face value) there was a significant amount that Fannie and Freddie took in that left us at a $31 billion shortfall that said we were expected to profit on as well.
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:48 PM   #27
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according to what he posted (and I'm not familiar with the site so I don't know how reliable it is but am taking it at face value) there was a significant amount that Fannie and Freddie took in that left us at a $31 billion shortfall that said we were expected to profit on as well.
Yes, not only do we still have a chance to get back every penny but make a profit. Rescue the economy and make a profit. Sounds like a Heritage foundation idea.

I checked Poltifact
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...turned-profit/
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:50 PM   #28
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Yes, not only so we still have a chance to get back every penny but make a profit. Rescue the economy and make a profit. Sounds like a Heritage foundation idea.

I checked Poltifact
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...turned-profit/
So my question is what is the point of this thread?
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:55 PM   #29
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So my question is what is the point of this thread?
It should be a HCF thread? We spent $10 BILLION on bailouts but we saved hundreds of thousands of jobs and made the money back in taxes we wouldn't have collected otherwise and saved the American car industry.

****ing Obama!
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Old 12-09-2013, 09:28 PM   #30
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Yes, not only do we still have a chance to get back every penny but make a profit. Rescue the economy and make a profit. Sounds like a Heritage foundation idea.

I checked Poltifact
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...turned-profit/
Lol! You need govt money to rescue the economy? Seriously that is a total fallacy.

I assure any money made a profit will eventually be wasted. And the Heritage Fdn is NeoConservative...ya' know more to the left than real conservatives.
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