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Old 12-12-2013, 11:04 AM  
gblowfish gblowfish is offline
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Understanding Poverty

20 things the poor deal with daily:

http://benirwin.wordpress.com/2013/1...-do-every-day/

Dave Ramsey probably wasn’t expecting this much pushback when he shared a piece by Tim Corley contrasting the habits of the rich with those of the poor. In her response on CNN, Rachel Held Evans noted that Ramsey and Corley mistake correlation for causality when they suggest (without actually proving) that these habits are the cause of a person’s financial situation. (Did it never occur to them that it might be the other way around?)

Ramsey fired back, calling the pushback “immature and ignorant.” This from a guy who just made 20 sweeping assertions about 47 million poor people in the US — all based on a survey of 361 individuals.

That’s right. To come up with his 20 habits, Corley talked to just 233 wealthy people and 128 poor people. Ramsey can talk all he wants about Corley’s research passing the “common-sense smell test,” but it doesn’t pass the “research methodology 101” test.

To balance the picture a bit, I wanted to take a fact-based look at 20 things the poor do on a daily basis…

1. Search for affordable housing.
Especially in urban areas, the waiting list for affordable housing can be a year or more. During that time, poor families either have to make do with substandard or dangerous housing, depend on the hospitality of relatives, or go homeless.
(Source: New York Times)

2. Try to make $133 worth of food last a whole month.
That’s how much the average food stamp recipient gets each month. Imagine trying to eat well on $4.38 per day. It’s not easy, which is why many impoverished families resort to #3…
(Source: Kaiser Family Foundation)

3. Subsist on poor quality food.
Not because they want to, but because they can’t afford high-quality, nutritious food. They’re trapped in a food system that subsidizes processed foods, making them artificially cheaper than natural food sources. So the poor are forced to eat bad food — if they’re lucky, that is…
(Sources: Washington Post; Journal of Nutrition, March 2008)

4. Skip a meal.
One in six Americans are food insecure. Which means (among other things) that they’re sometimes forced to go without eating.
(Sources: World Vision, US Department of Agriculture)

5. Work longer and harder than most of us.
While it’s popular to think people are poor because they’re lazy (which seems to be the whole point of Ramsey’s post), the poor actually work longer and harder than the rest of us. More than 80 percent of impoverished children have at least one parent who works; 60 percent have at least one parent who works full-time. Overall, the poor work longer hours than the so-called “job creators.”
(Source: Poverty and Learning, April 2008)

6. Go to bed 3 hours before their first job starts.
Number 15 on Ramsey and Corley’s list was, “44% of [the] wealthy wake up three hours before work starts vs. 3% of [the] poor.” It may be true that most poor people don’t wake up three hours before work starts. But that could be because they’re more likely to work multiple jobs, in which case job #1 means they’re probably just getting to bed three hours before job #2 starts.
(Source: Poverty and Learning, April 2008)

7. Try to avoid getting beat up by someone they love.
According to some estimates, half of all homeless women in America ran away to escape domestic violence.
(Source: National Coalition for the Homeless, 2009)

8. Put themselves in harm’s way, only to be kicked to the streets afterward.
How else do you explain 67,000 63,000 homeless veterans?
(Source: US Department of Veterans Affairs, updated to reflect the most recent data)

9. Pay more than their fair share of taxes.
Some conservative pundits and politicians like to think the poor don’t pay their fair share, that they are merely “takers.” While it’s true the poor don’t pay as much in federal income tax — usually because they don’t earn enough to qualify — they do pay sales tax, payroll tax, etc. In fact, the bottom 20% of earners pay TWICE as much in taxes (as a share of their income) as do the top 1%.
(Source: Institute on Taxation & Economic Policy, January 2013)

10. Fall further behind.
Even when poverty is the result of poor decision-making, often it’s someone else’s choices that make the difference. If you experience poverty as a child, you are 3-4 times less likely to graduate high school. If you spend your entire childhood in poverty, you are 5 times less likely to graduate. Which means your future has been all but decided for you.
(Sources: World Vision, Children’s Defense Fund, Annie E. Casey Foundation)

11. Raise kids who will be poor.
A child’s future earnings are closely correlated to their parents’ earnings. In other words, economic mobility — the idea that you can claw your way out of poverty if you just try hard enough is, more often than not, a myth.
(Sources: OECD, Economic Policy Institute)

12. Vote less.
And who can blame them? I would be less inclined to vote if I didn’t have easy access to the polls and if I were subjected to draconian voter ID laws that are sold to the public as necessary to suppress nonexistent voter fraud.
(Source: The Center for Voting and Democracy)

13. When they do vote… vote pretty much the same as the rest of us.
Following their defeat in 2012, conservatives took solace by reasoning that they’d lost to a bunch of “takers,” including the poor, who voted for Democrats because they want free handouts from big government. The reality is a bit more complex. Only a third of low-income voters identify as Democrats, about the same for all Americans, including wealthy voters.
(Sources: NPR, Pew Research Center)

14. Live with chronic pain.
Those earning less than $12,000 a year are twice as likely to report feeling physical pain on any given day.
(Source: Kaiser Health News)

15. Live shorter lives.
There is a 10-14 year gap in life expectancy between the rich and the poor. In recent years, poor people’s life expectancy has actually declined — in America, the wealthiest nation on the planet.
(Source: Health Affairs, 2012)

16. Use drugs and alcohol pretty much the same as (or less than) everyone else.
Despite the common picture of inner city crack houses, drug use is pretty evenly spread across income groups. And rich people actually abuse alcohol more than the poor.
(Source: Poverty and Learning, April 2008)

17. Receive less in subsidized benefits than corporations.
The US government spends around $60 billion on public housing and rental subsidies for low-income families, compared to more than $90 billion on corporate subsidies. Oil companies alone get around $70 billion. And that’s not counting the nearly $60 billion a year in tax breaks corporations enjoy by sheltering profits offshore. Or the $700 billion bailout banks got in 2008.
(Source: Think By Numbers)

18. Get themselves off welfare as soon as possible.
Despite the odds, the vast majority of beneficiaries leave the welfare rolls within five years. Even in the absence of official welfare-to-work programming, most welfare recipients enroll in some form of vocational training. Why? Because they’re desperate to get off welfare.
(Source: US Department of Health and Human Services)

19. Have about the same number of children as everyone else.
No, poor people do not have loads of children just so they can stay on welfare.
(Source: US Department of Health and Human Services)

20. Accomplish one single goal: stay alive.
Poverty in America may not be as dire as poverty in other parts of the world, but many working poor families are nonetheless preoccupied with day-to-day survival. For them, life is not something to be enjoyed so much as endured.

These are the real habits of the poor, those with whom Jesus identifies most closely.
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Old 12-12-2013, 03:04 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Race Card native View Post
Left of Stalin?

You are one of the stupidest, most gullible posters on the board. HERP DERP VACCINES ARE BAD HERP DERP
And the prosecution rests. Thanks for proving my point.
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Old 12-12-2013, 03:05 PM   #62
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I've mentioned this before, but I think we need to start measuring poverty in terms of standard of living, not money. If you're in the bottom 10 percent of a wealthy country and you have all you need, are you really poor?

If you examine things this way, you can then identify what gives a person a reasonable standard of living and concentrate on the people who don't have that.
Sounds good to me. I've seen abject poverty in Egypt and it does not compare to how our poor live. These folks have dirt floors, live under bridges with their families even. I'd say more but some of it just too gross.
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Old 12-12-2013, 03:07 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Well, ya' know what the lefties call that story--anecdotal.
I mean, I'm fine with it, as it puts a human face on the story, instead of a statistical number...but the left is against such personal experience being used in these debate threads. Just a FYI.
JFC You are quite possibly the stupidest person on the internet.

His story fits with the work that's been done in this area. The welfare queen stereotypes aren't nearly as common as the RWNJs like to pretend.
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Old 12-12-2013, 03:07 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by BIG_DADDY View Post
You really need to look in the mirror dude. YOU are one of the most hateful people on the whole board. It seems like every time I see one of your posts you are calling somebody names and saying the most hateful things you can think of just because that poster doesn't support your left of Stalin know what's best for everyone opinion.
Yup!
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Old 12-12-2013, 03:08 PM   #65
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And the prosecution rests. Thanks for proving my point.
Only a jackass like you can call someone names in a post and then when he gets his shit thrown back at him think that he's proven a point.
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Old 12-12-2013, 03:08 PM   #66
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look, I've been poor. I grew up with two pothead parents, one of which is/was a functioning alcoholic that, despite being incredibly intelligent, is a 56 year old man who works at a brown derby making 8.15 an hour (the other is a 54 year old diabetic on disability, not that she could ever hold a job for more than a year at a time).

food stamps? been there/done that. I have two older siblings, and there were many times when if we hadn't had food stamps, we wouldn't have eaten. I've eaten MANY cheap meals, as those food stamps have to last until next month. buying lottery tickets on them? yeah, that didn't happen.

clothing from the clothing bank? been there/done that. I didn't get new clothes. ever. I got the hand-me-downs from the charity run out of an old school on robberson street in springfield, mo. they also did school supplies and shoes (didn't get a new pair of shoes until I was like 12). I lived in constant envy of my friends who actually got new outfits for school. I lived in constant shame over the fact that what I had was never new. I got made fun of constantly, and as a result, have lived my life with the constant fire that settling is not an option.

being poor, however, made me who I am right now. I'm a 30 (almost 31) year old man whose parents have never done shit with their lives, yet I'm 1.5 years away from my Ph.D in molecular genetics. I may not have much, but what I have was earned with my own two hands. I've worked since I was 15 and a half, full-time since I was 18. I can tell you that being poor and seeing the shitty decisions that adults make can be the absolute strongest form of motivation on earth-- my dad still asks for money on occasion. my mom complains when their cable is about to be shut off and asks for money.

it's a sad state of affairs, but I've come to the conclusion that aside from the fact that I'd likely be better off financially if my parents were rich (and I'd already have my Ph.D, likely from a much more prestigious university), growing up poor isn't so bad--life is what you make of it, and you can overcome any odds if you set your mind to it. it's not for everyone, and likely many in my position would be in the gutter somewhere--but that's life.
While my story is not as tragic as yours, I too grew up poor. My mom worked her ass off to support 4 kids. I knew that I did not want to be poor and did everything in my power to get out and climb the socio economic ladder.

I realize that every situation is different and don't want to generalize. However I will say that I think there are way too many people who have been sucked into the belief that they can't climb out of poverty. IMHO that is the Liberal party mantra. One thing that my mother instilled in me is the belief that I could do just about anything I set my mind to. She taught me about goals and working at them everyday and they will come to fruition. My story is different than others because I had a mother that paid attention to our lives and did her best to instill the right values and ethics to help us succeed. I know there are many out there whose parents are a huge part of the problem.

I firmly believe that we could put a huge dent in poverty by just educating people instead of shoving a fist full of dollars at them. When I talk about education I mean more than reading, writing and arithmatic. We need to teach them to be successful. We need to teach skills and trades.
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Old 12-12-2013, 03:10 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Race Card native View Post
Only a jackass like you can call someone names in a post and then when he gets his shit thrown back at him think that he's proven a point.
What names did I call you?
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Old 12-12-2013, 03:12 PM   #68
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Then i think you and I define them as the same. I would also add that typically the working poor don't have any equity, or very little if any.
Some would say they live outside of their means. I think in several cases they are trying to provide their children with a stable neighborhood and good schooling. To live within their means would require living in a poor neighborhood exposing their children to high crime and poor education. Do not take me out of context I am not a big fan of handouts. I have no problem with providing someone with temporary assistance.

My problem is the war on poverty has been a colossal failure. We have a system that creates dependence while overlooking those were trying their best. I wish I had a solution I simply do not. The left seems to offer a mentality of stop striving stop working hard we will solve your problems for you. I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle. There is no middle in this country. Both parties for different reasons want the dependency. Self reliant people capable of surviving without the government does not offer the cheap labor or the power dependency gives the government~
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Old 12-12-2013, 03:15 PM   #69
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What names did I call you?
dude.


No wonder he got his shit in a wad.

Don be calling people dude. Dude.
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Old 12-12-2013, 03:16 PM   #70
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What names did I call you?
You didn't directly call me a name but used the "Left of Stalin knows what's best for everyone opinion" which is akin to calling someone a name even though you used it as an adjective for what you think my opinion on matters is.
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Old 12-12-2013, 03:18 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Race Card native View Post
You didn't directly call me a name but used the "Left of Stalin knows what's best for everyone opinion" which is akin to calling someone a name even though you used it as an adjective for what you think my opinion on matters is.
Diagram that sentence. Thats rich.
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Old 12-12-2013, 03:21 PM   #72
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You didn't directly call me a name but used the "Left of Stalin knows what's best for everyone opinion" which is akin to calling someone a name even though you used it as an adjective for what you think my opinion on matters is.
Baiting again tattooed tough guy from Eastwood
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Old 12-12-2013, 03:22 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by 2bikemike View Post
While my story is not as tragic as yours, I too grew up poor. My mom worked her ass off to support 4 kids. I knew that I did not want to be poor and did everything in my power to get out and climb the socio economic ladder.

I realize that every situation is different and don't want to generalize. However I will say that I think there are way too many people who have been sucked into the belief that they can't climb out of poverty. IMHO that is the Liberal party mantra. One thing that my mother instilled in me is the belief that I could do just about anything I set my mind to. She taught me about goals and working at them everyday and they will come to fruition. My story is different than others because I had a mother that paid attention to our lives and did her best to instill the right values and ethics to help us succeed. I know there are many out there whose parents are a huge part of the problem.

I firmly believe that we could put a huge dent in poverty by just educating people instead of shoving a fist full of dollars at them. When I talk about education I mean more than reading, writing and arithmatic. We need to teach them to be successful. We need to teach skills and trades.
I agree. And it's not JUST the parents, it's all of the adult influences in that child's life.

Sometimes i think about what happened in my life that caused me to separate from some of my peers. I think i had a lot of great influences in my life despite my shitty situation. I had teachers that took a special interest in me, counselors who acted like a parent....and even my shithead dad....

My dad was a druggie/alcoholic....but even as that....he always worked (when he could find work) and never asked for anything from anyone. Even when we slept on the riverbed we never panhandled and he never applied for welfare. He didn't believe in it. Instead, we made a hut out of bamboo to live in and traveled all over the county everyday to go to local churches if we needed to eat. Sometimes we would spend up to 3 hours or so traveling to get to our next meal....but he never asked for a dime from anyone.

Somewhere in that ****ed up head of his, his core values remained...and in a twisted weird way, he passed them on to me.

Then i look at some of my peers.....and it's the exact opposite with their parents. So even though i came from a more ****ed up childhood than a lot of them, i think i turned out a bit better simply because i had adults who believed in me, encouraged me, and a father, that at the very least, taught me the value of independence.
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Old 12-12-2013, 03:23 PM   #74
Nirvana58 Nirvana58 is offline
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Originally Posted by Nirvana58
I know the programs inside and out and could actually make more money sitting at home on my ass doing nothing than working everyday.

Originally Posted by Donger
Who does that?

Originally Posted by Detoxing
I see it here and there. Enough for me to notice.
I guess I should clarify. I am not saying a middle class employee making a decent wage would make more being on welfare. But people right on the cusp or classified as working poor actually could do better if they quit there jobs and stayed home. The system we created actually rewards people who do nothing over those who try to work for an honest living in poverty levels. I have actually had to tell people that are breaking there backs trying to make a living that they can't qualify for the help they need but if they would cut there hours or just quit working I can can enroll you in this, this, and this program for assistance. It is a broken system that really needs to be tore down and rebuilt focussing on teaching a man to fish instead of just giving them fish everyday.
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Old 12-12-2013, 03:30 PM   #75
Detoxing Detoxing is offline
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Some would say they live outside of their means. I think in several cases they are trying to provide their children with a stable neighborhood and good schooling. To live within their means would require living in a poor neighborhood exposing their children to high crime and poor education. Do not take me out of context I am not a big fan of handouts. I have no problem with providing someone with temporary assistance.

My problem is the war on poverty has been a colossal failure. We have a system that creates dependence while overlooking those were trying their best. I wish I had a solution I simply do not. The left seems to offer a mentality of stop striving stop working hard we will solve your problems for you. I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle. There is no middle in this country. Both parties for different reasons want the dependency. Self reliant people capable of surviving without the government does not offer the cheap labor or the power dependency gives the government~
It could be living outside your means. It would depend on your income and situation though. There's a pretty broad spectrum here. When i think of the working poor, i think of people who are getting by but aren't living in the best neighborhoods or driving the best cars, but rather "good enough". They make enough to maintain a decent life style but certainly not an excessive one.

When i think of people who live outside their means i think of people like my uncle, who would ultimately be classified as middle class. He scrapes by and usually doesn't have much excess money...but at the same time...he owns a house and spends money on stupid shit like ATV's and Dirtbikes and truck accessories.

I agree with your second paragraph though, 100%.
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