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Old 12-13-2013, 04:44 AM  
jaa1025 jaa1025 is offline
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U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

People wonder why we are going down hill as a country. Some very liberal interpretation of the US constitution here.

U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A massive cross that serves as part of a war memorial on a San Diego hilltop must be dismantled because it has been found to violate a constitutional ban on government endorsement of religion, a federal judge grudgingly ruled on Thursday.

The decision by U.S. District Judge Larry Burns marks the latest development in a long-running legal battle over the 43-foot-tall cross, a local landmark that has stood on top of Mount Soledad since 1954 and is visible for miles.

Burns stayed his order to give the Obama administration and the association that erected the cross, which have fought its removal all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, a chance to file another appeal. Otherwise, he said, the monument must be taken down within 90 days.

"This is a victory for religious liberty," said Daniel Mach, director of the American Civil Liberties Union's program on freedom of religion and belief who argued the matter for the plaintiffs in a hearing before Burns on Thursday.

"We firmly support the government's efforts to honor the service of those who fought and died for this country, but there are many ways to do that without playing favorites with religion," Mach said.
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The case hinged on whether it is legal for a religious symbol to be prominently displayed on public land and whether the cross violated the U.S. Constitution's requirement on separation of church and state.

The Mount Soledad cross has been the subject of litigation since 1989, when two veterans sued San Diego to get it off city land. In 2006, Congress intervened in the dispute, resulting in the federal government taking ownership of the property.

A group of plaintiffs, including the Jewish War Veterans of the United States of America, then sued. The U.S. Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals court ruled that the dominance of the cross conveyed a message of government endorsement of religion.

The Obama administration and the Mount Soledad Memorial Association, which erected the cross, appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court, supported by 20 U.S. states and various veterans groups in arguing the cross should be allowed as part of the memorial.

In June 2012, the Supreme Court declined to take the case, letting the Ninth Circuit's ruling stand. In ordering that the cross be taken down, Burns said on Thursday he did not agree with the Ninth Circuit's ruling but that his hands were tied.

The cross, located between the Pacific Ocean and a major interstate highway, is surrounded by walls displaying granite plaques that commemorate veterans or veterans groups. Easter services were held annually at the cross from 1954 until at least 2000, according to court documents.

The Mount Soledad Memorial Association, which erected the cross in place of another cross that had stood on that spot since 1913, could not immediately be reached for comment on Thursday's ruling.

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Old 12-14-2013, 06:29 PM   #46
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Its people sure weren't. The jury is still out on Adolf.
He definitely used Christian phraseology in his speeches, and tried to frame a "holy war" aspect to his endeavors. He also appeared to be bat shit crazy though.
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Old 12-14-2013, 06:31 PM   #47
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Pretty much. He was raised Catholic, but appeared to have used religion mostly as a political tool. Either way, he definitely went after people based on their religion, so who knows. We might have eventually found out, if he hadn't had that unfortunate run-in with being dead.
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Old 12-14-2013, 06:31 PM   #48
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I'm curious: How did God feel about the invasion of Normandy? In your book.
My book? In my book God gifts us all with free will and watches what we do with it. It's hardly the first act of violence he's had to witness.
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Old 12-14-2013, 06:37 PM   #49
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Nazi Germany wasn't a godless country.
While Christian churches had been there since forever, i would argue that the majority of that nation were anything but in those days... they had been swept up in a storm of hate and were, at the time, blind to anything good and decent in human nature.

How they extrapolated the extremely tough French terms of surrender in WWI into the jew hate it came to be, i'll never know... they were simply mad at everyone and the jews made a convenient scapegoat, i guess.
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Old 12-14-2013, 06:52 PM   #50
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While Christian churches had been there since forever, i would argue that the majority of that nation were anything but in those days... they had been swept up in a storm of hate and were, at the time, blind to anything good and decent in human nature.
You'd have to separate the political will of the leadership from the general will of the people to come to any meaningful conclusion. The Nazis were trying to become the dominant force of that society. They were systematically eliminating any group that held the people's loyalty. From the weakest to the strongest. It would not be unreasonable to assume that, had they won, they would have eventually officially eliminated all religious observance (although there was a "Positive Christianity" movement going on as an attempt to Nazi-ify Christianity) from their nation. Be that as it may, Germany had a substantial Christian population during the time period.

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How they extrapolated the extremely tough French terms of surrender in WWI into the jew hate it came to be, i'll never know... they were simply mad at everyone and the jews made a convenient scapegoat, i guess.
To keep it very simple: Defeat in WWI crippled Germany. The country became destabilized. The people became dispirited. The majority went along with the Nazis because they were efficient and strong. The Jews were singled out because they were easy targets. Just like gypsies, gays, political dissidents, etc.
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Old 12-14-2013, 07:08 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by scott free View Post
Then YOU invade fanatical, mainland Japan.
Who were actually trying to surrender. Such an invasion, or that bomb, were unnecessary.
Alas! the victors get to write the history books though.
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Old 12-14-2013, 07:09 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
I don't understand what you mean.
I see that. Nevermind. It was yesterday.
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Old 12-14-2013, 07:38 PM   #53
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Who were actually trying to surrender. Such an invasion, or that bomb, were necessary.
Alas! the victors get to write the history books though.
Hirohito may have been leaning towards surrender, but his military establishment was ready to go the distance, they tried to kill the Emperor after he made the radio address asking citizens to stand down, saying that it was all over... they blitzed his palace, tried to assassinate him, the works.

He had his own version of Eisenhowers dreaded "military industrial complex" to deal with.
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Old 12-14-2013, 09:36 PM   #54
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Hirohito may have been leaning towards surrender, but his military establishment was ready to go the distance, they tried to kill the Emperor after he made the radio address asking citizens to stand down, saying that it was all over... they blitzed his palace, tried to assassinate him, the works.

He had his own version of Eisenhowers dreaded "military industrial complex" to deal with.
Yeah, well I've been through this debate before and there's more to it. I'll leave it alone for now. FYI I meant to type "unnecessary" not "necessary."
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Old 12-14-2013, 09:40 PM   #55
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That too, absolutely... but there is a very strong Christian underpinning to this country, i'm sure you know that.
We've never nuked anyone or firebombed civilian cities or executed entire cities of civilians because of these underpinnings to.


Oh wait.
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Old 12-14-2013, 09:50 PM   #56
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Ok but I'll be using my values, I'm sure God doesn't want any part of it.
You sure? He had no problem committing genocide several times in the first few books of the bible.
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Old 12-14-2013, 09:50 PM   #57
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We've never nuked anyone or firebombed civilian cities or executed entire cities of civilians because of these underpinnings to.


Oh wait.
a) It wasn't preemptive b) it was world war... as in trying to save half of the world from absolute tyranny.

If that isn't worthy of harsh measures, then you're just being a ****nut because i have a religious angle.
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Old 12-14-2013, 10:00 PM   #58
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Yeah, well I've been through this debate before and there's more to it. I'll leave it alone for now. FYI I meant to type "unnecessary" not "necessary."
Well, i'm not automatically dismissive of your takes like some... so lets hear it, whats more to it?

I'll never claim to have read every book or have watched every documentary, whats the other angle you have...
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Old 12-14-2013, 10:04 PM   #59
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Well, i'm not automatically dismissive of your takes like some... so lets hear it, whats more to it?

I'll never claim to have read every book or have watched every documentary, whats the other angle you have...
Not now. Remember I said I've done this before. But it's late here and I just got my new system set up. Just don't feel like it. I'd even have to refresh my memory on the details. I just remember the gist of it as I posted above.

If you really want to know it's somewhere here on this board. I think the first time was when some of this stuff was in the Lounge. I think Adept Havelock was one of the ones debating in DC another time.
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Old 12-14-2013, 10:16 PM   #60
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Yeah, for all of Americas dirty deeds, we've never lined up 300 afghans and ran them over with tanks the way the Godless Russians did...

We've also never murdered our dissidents wholesale like the Chinese either...

Why? i believe it has something to do with our many God based values.
I'm not going to compare who did what when, but "America" has it's own warts and I don't think any God-based values stood in the way.
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Did planes hit the 2 WTC towers? Yes. Ah but were they the airliners we were told they were? Evidence and physics seems to say NO!

What about the Pentagon?? Again it appears it would...defy physics.
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