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Old 12-13-2013, 04:44 AM  
jaa1025 jaa1025 is offline
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U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

People wonder why we are going down hill as a country. Some very liberal interpretation of the US constitution here.

U.S. judge orders landmark California cross taken down

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A massive cross that serves as part of a war memorial on a San Diego hilltop must be dismantled because it has been found to violate a constitutional ban on government endorsement of religion, a federal judge grudgingly ruled on Thursday.

The decision by U.S. District Judge Larry Burns marks the latest development in a long-running legal battle over the 43-foot-tall cross, a local landmark that has stood on top of Mount Soledad since 1954 and is visible for miles.

Burns stayed his order to give the Obama administration and the association that erected the cross, which have fought its removal all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, a chance to file another appeal. Otherwise, he said, the monument must be taken down within 90 days.

"This is a victory for religious liberty," said Daniel Mach, director of the American Civil Liberties Union's program on freedom of religion and belief who argued the matter for the plaintiffs in a hearing before Burns on Thursday.

"We firmly support the government's efforts to honor the service of those who fought and died for this country, but there are many ways to do that without playing favorites with religion," Mach said.
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The case hinged on whether it is legal for a religious symbol to be prominently displayed on public land and whether the cross violated the U.S. Constitution's requirement on separation of church and state.

The Mount Soledad cross has been the subject of litigation since 1989, when two veterans sued San Diego to get it off city land. In 2006, Congress intervened in the dispute, resulting in the federal government taking ownership of the property.

A group of plaintiffs, including the Jewish War Veterans of the United States of America, then sued. The U.S. Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals court ruled that the dominance of the cross conveyed a message of government endorsement of religion.

The Obama administration and the Mount Soledad Memorial Association, which erected the cross, appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court, supported by 20 U.S. states and various veterans groups in arguing the cross should be allowed as part of the memorial.

In June 2012, the Supreme Court declined to take the case, letting the Ninth Circuit's ruling stand. In ordering that the cross be taken down, Burns said on Thursday he did not agree with the Ninth Circuit's ruling but that his hands were tied.

The cross, located between the Pacific Ocean and a major interstate highway, is surrounded by walls displaying granite plaques that commemorate veterans or veterans groups. Easter services were held annually at the cross from 1954 until at least 2000, according to court documents.

The Mount Soledad Memorial Association, which erected the cross in place of another cross that had stood on that spot since 1913, could not immediately be reached for comment on Thursday's ruling.

Last edited by jaa1025; 12-13-2013 at 04:50 AM..
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Old 12-14-2013, 10:18 PM   #61
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
Not in its laws, no.
If it weren't for Christianity, how else would we know killing people and/or stealing their stuff is bad?
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Old 12-14-2013, 10:21 PM   #62
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I'm not going to compare who did what when, but "America" has it's own warts and I don't think any God-based values stood in the way.
I would argue that, when compared to nations like china and russia, we've been model world citizens.

No small amount of warts to be sure, but we're usually not an absolute cancer either.
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Old 12-14-2013, 10:23 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
If it weren't for Christianity, how else would we know killing people and/or stealing their stuff is bad?
And what do I do with all of this rape I'm carrying around?
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Old 12-14-2013, 10:33 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by scott free View Post
I would argue that, when compared to nations like china and russia, we've been model world citizens.

No small amount of warts to be sure, but we're usually not an absolute cancer either.
There have been five, maybe ten, countries that have had absolutely unconscionable, brutal tyrants at their helms in the past century or so. You just said we're better than the two largest of them. That's kind of faint praise.

There are roughly 200 or so independent nations in the world, depending on who's counting. A better question would be what makes us better than, oh, say, New Zealand? Morocco? Iceland? How about countries more our size, like India or Brazil?

Answer that, and you'll be better able to defend your love for America.
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Old 12-14-2013, 10:33 PM   #65
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scott free

Here's a page of the one with Havelock but the earlier one had more details. I refer to it in my post to him but it's not coming up. So I will check under the other forum.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showt...an#post4140400

EDIT:

His the other. ( I think there's another one too but more could be on other pages on the one above)
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showt...an#post4140400


I don't think they were good guys. They did a lot of really bad stuff. The Rape of Nanking is just one. But they were defeated and trying to surrender. I used to believe we had to drop those bombs because it saved millions of lives...but I don't think it holds up.
Plus some of Truman's generals questioned him on using it.
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Old 12-14-2013, 10:36 PM   #66
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott free View Post
I would argue that, when compared to nations like china and russia, we've been model world citizens.

No small amount of warts to be sure, but we're usually not an absolute cancer either.
I wasn't trying to say the US is the worst, not by a long shot. Only that God-based values didn't stand in the way of some bad and destructive behavior.
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Old 12-14-2013, 10:43 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Aries Walker View Post
There have been five, maybe ten, countries that have had absolutely unconscionable, brutal tyrants at their helms in the past century or so. You just said we're better than the two largest of them. That's kind of faint praise.

There are roughly 200 or so independent nations in the world, depending on who's counting. A better question would be what makes us better than, oh, say, New Zealand? Morocco? Iceland? How about countries more our size, like India or Brazil?

Answer that, and you'll be better able to defend your love for America.
Fair points all, but lets confine the topic to true world powers who are capable of swaying the world towards something good or something bad.

Lets talk about nations that hold sway in the world and guide the way this world goes... i wont defend our dirty deeds, but i'll defend the proposition that our way creates more freedom and equality overall.

Dude, i've studied our warts not only against other countries but against our own people, and in the end i can only conclude that it pales in comparison to the other models for rule out there... is the world better off if china or russia hold sway? you already know the answer to that.
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Old 12-14-2013, 10:44 PM   #68
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Yeah I just checked it again scott free. My first link in post #65 continues for several pages with more details. Here's another:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showt...an#post4140400

I think it was just those two. But I could be wrong.
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Old 12-14-2013, 10:47 PM   #69
Easy 6 Easy 6 is offline
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
I wasn't trying to say the US is the worst, not by a long shot. Only that God-based values didn't stand in the way of some bad and destructive behavior.
I certainly wouldn't say its only about "God based values", theres also something inherent about our democratic, room for all, model for rule imo... it often looks better on paper than in practice, but its still the best guide imo.
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Old 12-14-2013, 10:52 PM   #70
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I certainly wouldn't say its only about "God based values", theres also something inherent about our democratic, room for all, model for rule imo... it often looks better on paper than in practice, but its still the best guide imo.
I think one of the things that makes our govt less bad, is our form of govt and it's basis on natural law PLUS it's restraints on executive power and other powers being separated. Really, places without any of that, get bad govts and often low standards of living. This is why I bemoan those things being withered away.

I mean it's falling apart more than ever today but that's what can stop a tyrant. That's one of the whole ideas behind our form of govt. Sure we can get a Truman making a bad decision to drop that bomb on Japan. But at least he said "the buck stops" there.
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Old 12-14-2013, 11:18 PM   #71
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This country is really dumb.
it is truly amazing how many ****s are given about shit that doesn't really matter

l
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Old 12-15-2013, 03:13 AM   #72
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You sure? He had no problem committing genocide several times in the first few books of the bible.
I could be wrong of course but my inability to have a face to face talk with Him about it means I get to shoulder the blame for the things I do.
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Old 12-15-2013, 08:18 PM   #73
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I don't get it.

They are removing a cross from a war memorial because the country doesn't endorse any certain religion...but our currency all says

"In God We Trust"

Inconsistent, at best.
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Old 12-15-2013, 08:29 PM   #74
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I don't get it.

They are removing a cross from a war memorial because the country doesn't endorse any certain religion...but our currency all says

"In God We Trust"

Inconsistent, at best.
Because "God is on our side" is a fun thing to say when you're at war apparently.
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Old 12-15-2013, 11:42 PM   #75
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